The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

The feminist movement has talked and written about that, many times. And suggested solutions.

A focus on the woman's role alone also ignores the child well-being angle. We keep being told that child mental health is declining and we know that parental involvement is good and important.

Again it's almost been made taboo to say that children need more time with their parents than current house prices and working patterns allow (then we wonder why they spend so much time on their phones).

Raising children really well is not an easy thing IMO, though it's treated as if it is. As PP have noted for children with SEND, meeting their needs well can require high levels of expertise and we know many schools are failing in this area, but nevertheless those parents doing the job (often extremely well) get very little support.

This attitude that childcare and supporting healthy physical and mental child development is an equivalent task to cleaning the house is very unhealthy for children and wider society imo.

There is far too little discussion about the quality and nature of childcare and whether in some cases that might be better provided by parents.

Very well said. As someone who is teaching my DC at home due to schools failing them, I really appreciate it. I think, often nowadays, children are regarded as. kind of inconvenient pet that people really should leave at home which is pretty sad.

I don't actually call myself a feminist anymore as the contempt for motherhood and anything associated with the traditionally feminine got to me.

I believe in equal rights for women and equal opportunities and I think we still have a long way to go on those. However, while having children and looking after them yourself is, except here on Mumsnet, considered to be letting the side down and makes you not a feminist, then I am not a feminist.

The women making the decisions, or writing about it tend to be either not parents, or women who never left work. So its not surprising that the focus is not to encourage or help women with alternative wants.

The 'solution' to being mothers is not much more than access to childcare, and is sold as being best for both the mother and child.

Anecdotal, the women I've met to are happier are the ones who have their parents or sisters around to share the care. Trusted people and the children remain in the family setting.

Eleanor Rathbone's most prominent achievement - during her years in parliament - was the introduction of the Familly Allowance ( 'child benefit' in modern day parlance). This guaranteed mothers a small, independent income, especially should they have the misfortune to be married to a man who treated the family wage as if it were his alone.

Unfortunately people who call themselves 'left wing feminists' who are also academics, immediately discount half the people they are supposedly paid to academise and theorise about for being 'right wing' probably because they don't understand basic statistics and think everyone wants to be them.

It is blatantly obvious as they cannot stand anyone who isn't a leftist having any opinion that doesn't tally with their own. Anyone on the left who has an opinion that doesn't tally is also deminised as Right Wing and so they are out of it too.

I'd still like to know who exactly is allowed to be a feminist.

Each child has specific needs. My own hated child care and hated after school care. I am interested what the proposed ‘solutions’ were as were being suggested up the page (that we have to apparently research because they have not been forthcoming).

And I wonder what considerations were made for the children where those children responded poorly to child care and even responded poorly to care given by grandparents?

No consideration is given.

By the age of 10 my son was having a mental health breakdown due to undiagnosed autism and needs not being met by mainstream school. He wouldn't go anywhere with anyone. He was trying to jump out of windows and was swerving my car, when I was driving it, into on coming traffic, throwing shoes at my head etc. all to avoid school.

It went against everything I was brought up to believe, all of the work I had done to establish my career for me to give it all up to be his carer. But if I hadn't he would be dead and I might be too. (He is now happily settled in his first year of university).

I'm now getting my daughter through her GCSEs this year and I'm tentatively looking at returning to work (although not in my original career as over the last 9 years I have lost my original love for the work I trained to do, along with the desire for a combative role after years of battling with mental health providers and with the education system to get alternative provisions in place. I am finding it hard as a middle age woman, to be taken seriously as a returner to the workplace, which is frustrating to say the least.

The value of the work I did at home is my eldest son's life. Along with tens of thousands of pounds in securing a suitable education for him and my daughter who is also autistic and is educated at home.

I would love to know the feminist 'solution' to the childcare and education of my children which would have allowed me to retain my career and keep my family alive.

Yes, it is never a choice between doing childcare and a lovely career it is always a choice to balance what is best for you and what is best for your own children with very specific needs.

This is what is missing. There's often a throwaway 'what is best for the mother is best for the child' but I think the inverse is actually more true. It is very difficult for mothers to see their children be failed and not step in to ensure a better outcome. Not all childcare (or schools) are equal or provide equal care, bit everyone has a wide choice, and it's notable that the very rich use nannies not nurseries.

I come into contact with a lot of homeschooling families and often it is essentially a decision to safeguard their children. It's not exactly choosing to stay home, it's safeguarding, it's protecting their child (and saving the state vast sums of money in the process), creating better more productive adults, all whilst the work being done and the sacrifices made are denigrated and dismissed. That's not feminist.

I am finding it hard as a middle age woman, to be taken seriously as a returner to the workplace, which is frustrating to say the least.

I found this too. Even though my first class degree and subsequent degrees still exist and are the same and arguably I have a breadth of experience that is much richer I've found I don't even get shortlisted for the exact same jobs I was offered in my early 30s. The only difference is that I'm older, obviously a mother and had a brief stint as a full time Mum (nanny to my own children).

So it must be ageism or sexism or anti mother discrimination.

For all the talk about returner programmes there is honestly fuck all for most skill sets. There are a few very specific programmes in specific areas, and most career support does not even consider the needs of returning mothers. That's something professional feminists could make a difference to but they don't bother. It's not a sex pay gap it's a motherhood pay gap.

There are a few very specific programmes in specific areas, and most career support does not even consider the needs of returning mothers. That's something professional feminists could make a difference to but they don't bother. It's not a sex pay gap it's a motherhood pay gap

100% this.

Instead the implication is that we've made our own beds.

to all.

Maybe JCJ could choose 'Domestic zombies, they're a real problem' as the subject of her next Twitter thread?

“I am finding it hard as a middle age woman, to be taken seriously as a returner to the workplace, which is frustrating to say the least.”

Same.

I had a child only diagnosed ASD at 18 who was socialised and fine at school but hated care despite being in for only part of the week. It too got to the point where we had to do this as little as possible so that they could have that down time in their own home.

I don’t regret prioritising my child. And because my husband worked very long hours, I did do all the ‘homemaking’. Not because I enjoyed it, but because it was necessary in that arrangement. There are many parents working freelance arrangements to prioritise their children.

But I remember being told by a couple of friends that my decision to take that dive on my career was not feminist. They were parents and who worked full time and long hours in their careers and the child care was 100% outsourced.

However, it is hard to get back into my old career and I am now considering retraining to at least have ‘current’ qualifications.

Regarding childcare, especially pre-school and nursery care........How many people would feel as comfortable should early years care be carried out primarily by men? I certainly don't think I'd feel particularly at ease with it.

It is more common to find men in childcare or teaching roles the older the age group of the child....so by the time they get to junior school it is fairly common to find male teachers, whilst no so much in Infant school. It is definitely a positive to find men in the classroom as they provide good male role models, and also in many circumstances an essential male role model for children, especially boys, brought up without a father.

But baby care?

I used to teach basic literacy skills to girls wanting to become nursery nurses. There was never, at any point I can recall, a boy or young man on the course.

Another one who had to give up work to homeschool. I am just trying to get back to work, I have no confidence, I feel completely devalued and unseen. My CV has a huge 6 year gap and the job centre told me to put “homemaker” on it. Who is going to employ an uneducated (no degrees to fall back on) 47 year old? My previous well paid career was in finance (industry specific dated qualifications) things have moved on the males who didn’t have to take a break are all Senior management on 6 figure salaries. Funnily enough everyone keeps telling me to apply to work on the till at B&M or get a little cleaning job. That is what society sees for me…until I am needed to care for my elderly parents then I will be useful again but only as an unpaid carer.

This is not true. Almost all the women who get name checked in these discussions are mothers. Some have had time out of work.
You are simply making assumptions because they do not talk about their personal life much with strangers.

@UrsulasHerbBag When you are out of the workplace for a bit, you do lose confidence. It is surprising how quickly it happens.
Ignore those telling you to apply for cleaning jobs. I am surprised at that, unless it is job centre staff saying that - they are not there to help you, simply to get you off their books. You had a career job, you need career advice from someone who understands your sector.

Thank you candy! I appreciate that. I think you are right they just want me off their books and don’t care where they put me. There is a glaring hole in supporting women back to the workplace which wouldn’t be there if women weren’t the first out of the workplace when it comes to child care. Women are almost the only line of defence for raising children and that is definitely a feminist issue! This has been a great thread I feel a bit less alone seeing all the other posters from different walks of life having the same experiences as me. I think I should set up an agency for supporting mums and women back into work. There’s definitely a need for it!

A yet the self appointed gate-keepers of feminism use phrases like "domestic zombies".

That's the point of the discussion, it's these particular people who seem to think they have some kind of right to decide what good feminists think and other women should shut up.

I don't think this is just women, tbh, men I know who are looking for jobs at a similar age - even without a gap in employment, but needing to change sectors for example - report very similar problems.

I was myself a child who hated care. Not autistic, I just found it too much all day to be with so many people, and my mum ended up putting me in care in a home. I hated that as well,but not so much. I always, always felt that I was in someone else's home and could not relax, was not safe and secure, had to be on my guard. And I know my mum worked really hard to find a good situation for me. Some of my earliest emotional memories are around feeling displaced at a babysitters. I found school in the first few years overwhelming too, and even at 12 when I couldn't go home any more at noon to eat, I found it a difficult change because it was just too noisy all day.

I suppose this was part of what influenced me to home educate my kids through most of the early years, apart from the youngest, as I had to go back to work.

I actually don't mind a "motherhood" pay gap. I don't think there is a really fair way to get around the fact that years not working impacts your pay and seniority. I am happy with the job I have and I've done well with it. I made a choice to have kids and I wanted to stay with them, myself. I found that very satisfying as well, and I also took my friend's two kids through their early years while he worked and his wife was ill, and they have a very close relationship with my kids. Different paths lead to differernt places, and that's ok by me.

But I also am not the "dependent" in my marriage in the sense that we don't have separate money and we functions a unit, and always have. My role has never been less important than my kid's father's role.

I wouldn't necessarily turn my nose up at cleaning depending on the details. A woman where I work left her desk job for cleaning - she had been doing it on the side and was making more per hour doing that! And you can have good control of your own hours too.

I don't think JB or JCJ are mothers, are they? I was also told that JCJ has never worked. But I'm not on Twitter. Is that the case?

I was also told that JCJ has never worked.

Not sure about that but her parents gave her a flat and then she complained about how it was decorated.

x.com/braddockbessie/status/1826209710103580915?s=48&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

x.com/ajatheempress/status/1826224941961736202?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ