BBC Radio 4 - Missing Pieces: The Lesbian Mothers Scandal

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Anybody else hear this today? It's a Radio 4 documentary about women who came out as lesbians, left their husbands and as part of the divorce proceedings then lost custody (as it was termed then) of their children, because they were considered unfit mothers by virtue of their sexuality (and in most cases also because they were openly feminist). I knew it had happened (wasn't there a thread about it not long ago?), but it was so shocking to hear the women's testimonies. One woman lost custody of her son to her ex-husband who then buggered off abroad and left their little boy in foster care rather than give him back to his Mum, and he wasn't well looked after there. Another woman who did (very unusually) manage to keep her children said a social worker had to come and check to make sure her son was playing football and her daughter was playing with dolls, i.e. that their mother was enforcing gender stereotyping, in spite of her women's lib nonsense.

Well worth a listen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0025vb2

Yes, I listened to it. Heartbreaking. The poor women denied their children, and the children denied their mothers just because the women were lesbians.

It made very uncomfortable listening. Having their own biological children removed from them because of their sexuality. Yet fast forward to today and the trade in babies for gay men or really any man who wants to purchase a baby is fast growing. Removing more babies from their Mothers-it's heartbreaking.

Yes, I was thinking what a massive turn around it's been, and in such a short time.

Thanks for the recommendation. It sounds really shocking.

It is terribly shocking. To hear in so many words that a husband who was not the children's biological father (he was their stepfather) was considered a more suitable person to bring them up than their mother purely because of her sexuality!

I listened as was aware of this, and thought for the BBC it was relatively straight forward in the telling.

But that the presenter was stuck in contemporary politics.

Apparently others were inteviewed but were not included because of being "too political", and they went for the personal stories.

Which of course deserve to be told. And glad some of the children impacted by this gross example of male patriarchy were give a voice.

This is a report from around that time https://archives.lse.ac.uk/records/HCA/EPHEMERA/1060 - it maybe in other archives.

This is living memory stuff - I know families who were affected by it, mothers living in fear of their child being snatched at any moment, with no recourse to the law to get them back.

Visits to the children's fathers were a real nightmare, as they could just decide not to let the children go back home, and again, no recourse to the law.
Fortunately in the cases I know of, the children stayed with their mothers; but the constant anxiety, added to the general negative attitude to lesbians at the time, made life incredibly difficult for them.

I'm not sure surrogacy is in the same category, happydappy2 . While mothers may be under serious economic pressure to make the decision to give up their babies, it's not the same as having your child taken away from you entirely against your will, is it?

Think of the damage to children, who have been removed from their Mothers. It makes no difference to them if it was because their Mother was a lesbian, or poor. They are denied the relationship with their Mother, who is best placed to love and protect them. If you centre the child, surrogacy is harmful.

I listened to it. Absolutely incredible that this was happening only a few short decades ago. All caused by a few trumped up male judges drunk on their own sense of importance of course. It makes you realise how fair society has come in such a short time.

Well said for making that connection!

Absolutely heartbreaking. I was so shocked that this was all so recent. Utterly heartless and ignorant. What weak pretexts for removing children and what utter devastation for the children and the mothers.

We know it happened. And the presenter should have continued to use the word lesbian and not queer of course. Linda B spoke very movingly about her experience . We were all scared then and some women and children were punished indeed. Now I guess it will all be about “trans” people having their children removed …

All caused by a few trumped up male judges drunk on their own sense of importance of course.

Anything but!

These Judges were a reflection of society at the time.

Most women who were lesbian certainly weren't public about it, and I would say most members of the public would think a lesbian bringing up children was totally unacceptable.

So although terrible what these women and their children suffered, the upside was that it meant a more public discussion, and as it were, consciousness raising, that just because a woman was sexually attracted to another woman, it didnt mean she couldn't be a good and caring mother.

I think also, although about lesbians, what many men, not just the Judges couldn't stand, was that it seemed that women were more than able to be a good parent on their own, live their own life, and not need a man, whether father or husband to "take care of her".

It is hard to believe but within the life time of some of us, women living independently has now become normal, but then wasn't. Or more likely to be some "sad old spinster" having to live her "unfulfilled" live with men to cater to!

Just had really old fashioned and patriachal it all was, worth remembering that the "trouser suit" was thought to be a revolution.

So although most of the judgemental attitudes were about women have a sexuality autonomous of men, it was also about not wanting women to be seen to be able to be independent of men.

Late night typing errors

Or more likely to be some "sad old spinster" having to live her "unfulfilled" live with men to cater to!
Just had really old fashioned and patriachal it all was, worth remembering that the "trouser suit" was thought to be a revolution.
So although most of the judgemental attitudes were about women have a sexuality autonomous of men, it was also about not wanting women to be seen to be able to be independent of men.

Should be:

Or more likely to be some "sad old spinster" having to live her "unfulfilled" live with no men to cater to!

Just how really old fashioned and patriachal it all was, worth remembering that the "trouser suit" was thought to be a revolution.

So although most of the judgemental attitudes were about women having a sexuality autonomous of men, it was also about not wanting women to be seen to be able to be independent of men.

I have a hunch that a lot of it was feeling that it was good and natural for children, perhaps especially boys, to have a father in their lives, as much for the father's sake as the children's. Obviously if a woman had been widowed or abandoned by her husband or the child's father if unmarried, she had to manage as best she could, but where she voluntarily took her children away from their father this was an outrage to his right to be a paterfamilias as well as their right/need to have a father.

The threat to take children away from lesbian mothers was not dependent on whether or not the children had contact with their fathers.

Waving goodbye to their children as they went off to spend time with their father might be the last time a lesbian mother ever saw them; if the father refused to return them he would get custody, refuse you any access, and there'd be little you could do about it.
At least he, whether a wonderful parent or an abusive one, wasn't 'unnatural'.

I was one of these children. I hadn’t realised how big a scandal it was. I’m not sure whether I want to listen to be honest (although I’ve forwarded it to my mum). My sister and I were lucky that our dad was (and is) a goodun. My parents are still good friends now although I imagine it must have been so so hard for my dad at the time.

I heard this and it was absolutely heartbreaking, but it will stay as a small, rarely-heard piece on a radio station with a small percentage of the general population listening to it. The big shouty TRAs will get their voices heard, the train companies will keep painting the Pride flag with the pink/white/blue stripes in it on to their rolling stock, the men in women’s clothing will keep pushing their way into lesbian women’s spaces, because lesbians are not seen as important at all. One, because they are not men, and two, because they are not interested in men the way men would like.

Thanks for the link. What heartbreaking stories. I can't believe this was happening such a short time ago.

I listened to this on the way home from uni today and cried my eyes out. I'm a mum of five, dv survivor and have had my kids withheld - not from sexuality (I have had partners of both sexes - I'm attracted to a person not their birth or preferred gender so not sure what that makes me) but from control - my eldest were born late nineties to early millennium and I have young kids now.
I am now (finally at 45!) going to uni and I am an artist focussing on women's issues. I would love to do a photographic series on this to bring attention to the horrific state intervention because as great as this r4 interview was, it will get missed. It really REALLY needs someone to shove it front and centre because for all the lip service progress, things are sliding backwards again for women. I'd love to do this and push the agenda but there are probably far more qualified people. That said, if it resonates, please let me know if you want my uni email.

I'd love to do this and push the agenda but there are probably far more qualified people. That said, if it resonates, please let me know if you want my uni email.

I would say you are more than qualified, as you have had similar experiences.

As the programme was just something made for or by the BBC doubt they would be interested.

I am wondering if the Lesbian History group might be able to suggest how you could contact the women who took part / told their stories.

Their email address is at the end of this article. https://lesbianhistorygroup.org/

Article by the woman who made the programme, which only confirms to me her "queer" view of the world made her probably not the most suitable person to make this programme.

And for some reason, even though she did the interviews, she did not include those who did the initial legal work on lesbian custody issues.

She seems to think it was jut one barrister. I never know when programme makes to this because they think a lone heroine is a more sypathetic character than finding women working together as a group!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/18/lesbian-mothers-scandal-custody-cases-families

Hello, I started a petition on this if people would like to sign. It for some reason doesn’t show the full wording on mobile, but it is:

Issue formal apology re historical treatment of lesbian mothers & their children

An apology to be issued in line with the HoC discussions and government apology for historic treatment of homosexual males (very specifically males, although females have clearly suffered their own injustices - see Hansard 21 Oct 2016) in 2017 and the 2000 apology to LGBT veterans.

Lesbian mothers were historically discriminated against in family courts, losing custody of their children solely due to their sexual orientation, often without regard for the child's well-being. While this must be viewed with a historical lens, many women and children still carry the pain of this injustice today. As discussed in the program, an apology would help validate their experiences and aid in healing. See more: BBC Radio 4 documentary, "Missing Pieces: The Lesbian Mothers Scandal".

I need one more person to sign it before it can go ‘public/published’, but not sure exactly what that actually means!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/712574/sponsors/new?token=QTA9f5wwpVhXU98wc4r8