Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever think we should just embrace the patriarchy?

94 replies

TERFCat · 04/12/2024 22:25

The videos of the medical students being told they can't continue their studies because they're women has broken my heart. Hundreds of innocent women having their dreams shattered, and for what? So that men can control us?!?

What I've taken from this, and the events of the past decade, is that our rights are fragile. Men will take every opportunity to claw them back. If there was a referendum in the Uk tomorrow to remove our freedoms, I'm sure over half of men would vote yes.

With this in mind, would it not be better for us to just embrace the patriarchy? It doesn't feel like we'll ever win the fight against it, so why don't we try to work with it?

Looking for a discussion on this.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 05/12/2024 10:27

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 05/12/2024 09:46

The fight against women's oppression is hard, and it will never end: its not a case of fix it once and it will stay fixed.

But we have no choice but to carry on, and the situation in Afghanistan illustrates why.

I believe that patriarchy is the natural state of society, because of our differing reproductive roles, and the accompanying differences of physical power and aggressiveness. There has never been a society in which women dominate, or even have parity, Afghanistan being the extreme example.

So we're engaged in a constant firefight to mitigate the excesses of patriarchy, and the patriarchy fights back all the time.

(I see this as analogous to the problem of capitalism. It may well be the least worst economic system there is, but we still have to rein it in all the time to stop it eating both the environment and all the humans that rely on it for essential goods and the means to pay for them.)

So, on the one hand, I've embraced the patriarchy, in that I think it's inescapable.

And on the other hand...

Never give up! Never surrender!

I had already started writing my post when I went back and read yours, theilltemperedqueenofspacetime [great name!] so any similarities are unintentional but goodSmile

It's not a winnable war, it's a constant, gruelling, asymmetrical battle. There is no 'victory' - what would that even look like? Unfortunately, experience tells me that there also is no certain progress: achievement that I thought were 100% copper-fastened have been taken away in the past decade.

I never thought women would have our protection under equality legislation removed. I never thought misogyny would be cool, bro. I never though groups of men would organise online around explicit and murderous hatred of women.
I never thought the very word for our identity, woman, would be stolen.
I never thought that lesbians would be targeted not only by 'corrective rape' and murder, but also by exclusion from the groups that are supposed to be fighting for our rights.

On the other hand, I was not surprised that it was so easy to assemble a random group of blokes next door, fathers of families, good husbands, ordinary guys etc to rape an unconscious women - all the evils I have seen perpetrated against me and other women have been the acts of some 'ordinary guy'.

My strategy in the asymmetrical battle has been wariness, distance and avoidance. I have as little to do with men as is possible. My attitude is wary but polite and even amiable to men who have not given me reason to behave otherwise - but that's not the same as trust. I know from experience that while not all men are abusive, any man may be - home angel, street devil or vice versa.

Maintaining the maximum possible level of independence from men is exhausting, and I understand that aspect of the OP's post. But the opposite, 'embracing the patriarchy', would probably be equally exhausting but - statistics suggest - more dangerous.

Snowypeaks · 05/12/2024 10:36

Ladyof2024 · 05/12/2024 10:19

"If there was a referendum in the Uk tomorrow to remove our freedoms, I'm sure over half of men would vote yes."

An unpredictable number of women would, too. There are plenty of women championing the removal of women's safe spaces, including some senior female politicians who are not only highly educated university graduates but whose constituencies are at least 50% female.

During the suffrage movement there was also an anti suffrage sect led by women who actively campaigned against women getting the parliamentary vote. Some of them wrote articles and travelled all over the UK giving speeches on the subject in an attempt to prevent other women from voting.

Edited

Great post.

The anti-suffragists were all about being the power behind the throne, or exerting influence on the background, weren't they? Middle and upper class women who thought suffragettes and their supporters were trying to throw away the only power women could have, in pursuit of a chimera.

Also interesting attitude: I don't want/need these rights, therefore other women can't have them. Sounds very familiar!

EasternStandard · 05/12/2024 10:41

No way

LostittoBostik · 05/12/2024 10:43

What the hell does "work with it" mean? Abandon our own hopes and aspirations to be the sidekick to a man? Return to being baby vessels with zero control over our fertility?

FUCK - and I cannot say this strongly enough - THAT

Snowypeaks · 05/12/2024 10:45

MarieDeGournay · 05/12/2024 10:27

I had already started writing my post when I went back and read yours, theilltemperedqueenofspacetime [great name!] so any similarities are unintentional but goodSmile

It's not a winnable war, it's a constant, gruelling, asymmetrical battle. There is no 'victory' - what would that even look like? Unfortunately, experience tells me that there also is no certain progress: achievement that I thought were 100% copper-fastened have been taken away in the past decade.

I never thought women would have our protection under equality legislation removed. I never thought misogyny would be cool, bro. I never though groups of men would organise online around explicit and murderous hatred of women.
I never thought the very word for our identity, woman, would be stolen.
I never thought that lesbians would be targeted not only by 'corrective rape' and murder, but also by exclusion from the groups that are supposed to be fighting for our rights.

On the other hand, I was not surprised that it was so easy to assemble a random group of blokes next door, fathers of families, good husbands, ordinary guys etc to rape an unconscious women - all the evils I have seen perpetrated against me and other women have been the acts of some 'ordinary guy'.

My strategy in the asymmetrical battle has been wariness, distance and avoidance. I have as little to do with men as is possible. My attitude is wary but polite and even amiable to men who have not given me reason to behave otherwise - but that's not the same as trust. I know from experience that while not all men are abusive, any man may be - home angel, street devil or vice versa.

Maintaining the maximum possible level of independence from men is exhausting, and I understand that aspect of the OP's post. But the opposite, 'embracing the patriarchy', would probably be equally exhausting but - statistics suggest - more dangerous.

I hear you.
[Hug]

@theilltemperedqueenofspacetime
Difference with me is that I don't believe patriarchy is the natural order.
I believe it was imposed on women a few thousand years ago - a long time, but not long in relation to how long homo sapiens has been on the planet. It's fundamentally unnatural.
Adult men benefit from it, but I also believe that a not insignificant majority want to be rescued from it, or at least from its excesses. Probably my own self delusion, but I'm holding on to it!

Dash0Cal · 05/12/2024 10:50

Honestly, I am quite jealous of the women I personally know who live for their husbands. Their lives seem easier than mine, and they don't have never ending battles on their hands.

The problem is that you can’t pick and choose which bits to give up. I can well imagine some women would enjoy being a housewife and that’s fine if everyone is in agreement- that isn’t embracing the patriarchy, it’s an exercise of choice (and wealth).

Your friends who live for their husbands would presumably enjoy it less if they couldn’t own property, or had no rights to leave or (having left) to see their children, or to say no to sex- all things women have had to fight for and which we shouldn’t give up in exchange for an idealised notion of playing house.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 05/12/2024 10:52

Snowypeaks · 05/12/2024 10:36

Great post.

The anti-suffragists were all about being the power behind the throne, or exerting influence on the background, weren't they? Middle and upper class women who thought suffragettes and their supporters were trying to throw away the only power women could have, in pursuit of a chimera.

Also interesting attitude: I don't want/need these rights, therefore other women can't have them. Sounds very familiar!

The power behind the throne. 🙄

I had a university friend who thought women secretly ruled the world, despite all the evidence that they are hated and mistreated (I think the Jews might want a word with him).

I heard he 'transitioned'.

RedHelenB · 05/12/2024 11:12

TERFCat · 04/12/2024 22:44

I don't want to embrace the patriarchy. I wish that all women were free to make their own choices, but they're not.

For those young women in Afghanistan, don't you think that embracing the patriarchy might be their best, and likely only, option? I don't think they'll get to continue at medical school, no matter how much they fight it sadly. They've got hard lives ahead no matter what, but accepting the patriarchy might make their situation easier at least?

How? Going along with means dying in childbirth, not being able to access health care? They're fighting for themselves and their children.

Goldbar · 05/12/2024 11:14

What is being forced upon women in Afghanistan is complete disenfranchisement, invisibility, economic dependency, physical and economic abuse, child marriage, child rape, early pregnancy, inadequate or no healthcare. I won't say a life not worth living, because where there is life, there is hope and humans have a wonderful capacity to find solace in the little things around them. But certainly a life curtailed, controlled and full of darkness.

It isn't all men vs women either. Harming women harms men and children too. Many men will be suffering from seeing the lives and rights of the women they love curtailed and made subject to arbitrary interventions by cruel and brutal authorities, and children (both boys and girls) will suffer because their mothers are not able to be equal, effective and empowered parents to them. The atmosphere of brutality and arbitrary discrimination harms everyone.

It is awful that what we can do is so limited, but we need to stand up against the misogyny and inequalities we see around us and say "This is not ok", loud and clear. Not only about the big stuff but also the little stuff.

Brefugee · 05/12/2024 11:15

If you think we should embrace the patriarchy: fuck no

If you think the girls and women in Afghanistan have any other option than to "embrace the patriarchy" - WTF?

Brefugee · 05/12/2024 11:17

TERFCat · 05/12/2024 00:42

I don't want what I'm suggesting. I just think it's becoming a more and more appealing option to me.

I've been following women's rights for about a decade. Honestly, in that time, I've seen little progress because everytime we achieve something, something else seems to be taken away from us. I mean, people cheered as a man punched a woman in the face this summer at the Olympics FFS!

It's starting to feel like we'll never win this war, and even if we did, we'd constantly have to protect our win against misogynists. This reality gets me down. The fight gets me stressed.

Honestly, I am quite jealous of the women I personally know who live for their husbands. Their lives seem easier than mine, and they don't have never ending battles on their hands.

ah got it. We 2nd wavers were wasting our time then 🙄

maltravers · 05/12/2024 11:50

TERFCat · 04/12/2024 22:44

I don't want to embrace the patriarchy. I wish that all women were free to make their own choices, but they're not.

For those young women in Afghanistan, don't you think that embracing the patriarchy might be their best, and likely only, option? I don't think they'll get to continue at medical school, no matter how much they fight it sadly. They've got hard lives ahead no matter what, but accepting the patriarchy might make their situation easier at least?

I imagine most Afghani women do “embrace the patriarchy” as it’s that or die. We’re in a different place thank God, and if the genders wars have taught anything, it’s don’t cede ground/your rights, or men will trample all over you. In the words of that old banner “Don’t cry, resist!”.

WarmFrogPond · 05/12/2024 11:54

Brefugee · 05/12/2024 11:17

ah got it. We 2nd wavers were wasting our time then 🙄

Clearly we shouldn’t have bothered our pretty little heads.

BelaLugosisThread · 05/12/2024 11:55

I think the sense of hopelessness that you describe in your OP is how come we ended up with cool girl libfem in the 90s. Basically polishing a turd. Mental gymnastics of 'reclaiming' and 'subverting' the status quo ultimately fuelled by the realisation of the enormity of real social change.

TERFCat · 05/12/2024 12:05

Thanks for the comments so far. I'm (morbidly) finding this discussion informative and interesting, so thank you to all contributors.

OP posts:
flyingbuttress43 · 05/12/2024 12:37

I treated TERFCat's post like a bad joke at first or a men's rights activist's attempt to provoke. When I realised she is apparently serious I got angry.

OP you can be a 1950's throwback if you want because you fancy an easy life of submission. But engage brain for a moment. If all us second wavers had folded up our camp chairs and crept back into our beds and pulled the covers over our heads where would life and your options be? I'm asking as someone who spent the 60s and 70s fighting for the things you can now take for granted.

You might say you were posing a hypothetical argument for the sake only of discussion, but think what the implication of that is i.e. the fact that you could semi-seriously even pose that question is a gift to the still lurking neanderthal mindset of those who believe in the superior attributes of the male sex and the intrinsic lesser value of females.

If you feel like giving up fine. You do you. But don't be surprised if your passivity bites you on the arse if you find a bloke who agrees with you.

WarmFrogPond · 05/12/2024 12:46

flyingbuttress43 · 05/12/2024 12:37

I treated TERFCat's post like a bad joke at first or a men's rights activist's attempt to provoke. When I realised she is apparently serious I got angry.

OP you can be a 1950's throwback if you want because you fancy an easy life of submission. But engage brain for a moment. If all us second wavers had folded up our camp chairs and crept back into our beds and pulled the covers over our heads where would life and your options be? I'm asking as someone who spent the 60s and 70s fighting for the things you can now take for granted.

You might say you were posing a hypothetical argument for the sake only of discussion, but think what the implication of that is i.e. the fact that you could semi-seriously even pose that question is a gift to the still lurking neanderthal mindset of those who believe in the superior attributes of the male sex and the intrinsic lesser value of females.

If you feel like giving up fine. You do you. But don't be surprised if your passivity bites you on the arse if you find a bloke who agrees with you.

Hear, hear, @flyingbuttress43.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 05/12/2024 12:48

Snowypeaks · 05/12/2024 08:27

I think for the women of Afghanistan, embracing the patriarchy would leave them in exactly the same position as they are now, except for a few women who might get meagre privileges in return for policing the other women.

So I don't think it would help the women of Afghanistan. They would still be women, which is what the Taliban have against them, and still subject to the same restrictions.

I find the OP’s use of Afghanistan as an example here in really bad taste. I’m wondering if it’s a sick joke?

MissPollysFitDolly · 05/12/2024 13:03

As PP have said, Hell No!

What would it even mean for a middle aged, single, childless woman like me to embrace the patriarchy; what would my life be like?

Rather than bending over backwards it would be better to move to the other extreme and fight. Not agitate and then wait for some fair minded men to throw us some equality crumbs, set up a standing Womans Army and take what should be ours. Of course we'd need our own parallel technology, with equipment designed for us (maybe we can revive some witchy crafts - goes in search of frog spawn...)

But more seriously I think this is what the Afghan women will have to do, take up arms, if they want their freedoms. Their men aren't going to do it for them. I understand suicide rates are very high amongst the women, they should direct that strength, anger and frustration at the Taliban.

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/12/2024 13:22

Personally find the concept of 'patriarchy', when applied to liberal western societies, pretty defunct and also problematical. I used to use it when younger, but I reject it now.

Patriarchy, strictly speaking, is the rule of the father, or by men more generally - in which women and girls are seen as the property of their father, and where women and girls do not have equal rights in law. There are certainly many societies in which patriarchy is most definitely still a thing. Afghanistan is probably one of the most extreme versions of the patriarchy.

I personally don't think that 'patriarchy' applies to us in the West anymore....... what we are left with is general differences between the sexes. Physical and biological differences and all that stems from those differences. I think raging against these differnces is pretty pointless and ultimately doesn't change them, either.

Unless we envisage a future in which babies are gestated outside of the body and brought up in state run establishments ( communism has come pretty close to this vision in certain ways - in which the state takes on a totalitarian character) then women ( in general) will always tend to carry the biggest share of childcare and domestic responsibility. Obviously, some families, happily and easily, make other arrangements along more equitable lines......but for many these issues tend to be one of the prime reasons for marital or relationship breakdown.

Women are increasingly having to do everything......have children and the related domestic responsibilities, but also a full time career, and lifestyles have become predicated on two full time incomes. so even if a woman wants to take a few years off, or go down to P/T she is unable to. Some women are putting off, or not having children at all. I'm not sure this is becauase of 'patriarchy' though - it is far more practical than that.

After all these years of feminism we still see male violence and sexual assaults - and i don't think that will ever change. Males are simply more predisposed to violent and sexual crime.....although, of course, not all men are violent or are rapists. Holding all men responsible for the behaviour of some men is not a winning game in my view, and doing this just makes women feel permanently angry.

Gregg Wallace is an example of a sex obsessed, probably porn addicted, man and he's definitely not the only one. But I don't see his behaviour as being down to 'patriarchy'. I think his behaviour is a result of his own male role models, his own character and his own life experiences - combined with natural heterosexual male tendencies. He alone has to take responsibility for his behaviour. John Torode managed to conduct himslef in a respectful way towards his female colleagues.

I recall when Reading Andrea Dworkin - who most certainly suffered terribly at the hands of men - I'd come away feeling absolute rage and hatred towards men......though I'm also sure that is not a healthy state to be in. Her experiences were extreme, and there are definitely some women who have suffered similarly...but not most of us.

In short, I'm more accepting of sex based differences now and have reconciled myself with them. And as such, i don't recognise British society as a patriarchal one. The reason we have singles sex spaces, services and sports, for example....is in recognition of some of the differences between the sexes - not because women as a group are oppressed. We have such safeguarding rules and they are based both on predictable risks and out of a sense of female dignity and worth.

Mary Harrington is a thinker who I have a lot of time for on this area of thought...though at times she can be a little too esoteric, with her own self created vocabulary and concepts.....but interesting nonetheless, and willing to psuh the boundaries of thinking when it comes to contemporary society and the positions of men and women in it.

Brefugee · 05/12/2024 13:28

TERFCat · 05/12/2024 12:05

Thanks for the comments so far. I'm (morbidly) finding this discussion informative and interesting, so thank you to all contributors.

let us know where we can read your essay/blogpost/article, won't you?

Personally find the concept of 'patriarchy', when applied to liberal western societies, pretty defunct and also problematical. I used to use it when younger, but I reject it now.

More eye rolling from me. Yes there is no patriarchy. Women occupy exactly 50% of all positions of authority, are 50% of all CEOs etc. And hold exactly 50% of the wealth.

Yes, in the Global North we're largely in a much better position. And i for one use my voice and whatever means i have to try to change the position of women elsewhere, including Afghanistan (there are vigils on Saturday, btw). I do that by voting for a government i think has a strong foreign policy in that respect, and are not afraid to tackle other governments on their human rights record...

(oh wait, in the places i can vote NONE OF THE GOVERNMENTS DO THAT)

ladymalfoy45 · 05/12/2024 13:32

Fuck.Right. Off.
Last year when doing our new Safeguarding training we were told that ' boys will be boys ' should no longer be tolerated in light of the increase in sexual assaults in schools.
All female staff reported incidents of sexually inappropriate language and behaviour.
I'm sure male teachers might have reported the same behaviour,but when you hear some of them sat ' it's just banter' you realise some men are really not allies of women and girls.
One female pupil was locked in one of the cubicles by a boy.
Did anyone call the police after she was rescued?
No.
Two days exclusion for him.
Female pupil left changed school.
So did I.

Brefugee · 05/12/2024 13:33
Tracee Ellis Ross Lol GIF by BET

In short, I'm more accepting of sex based differences now and have reconciled myself with them. And as such, i don't recognise British society as a patriarchal one. The reason we have singles sex spaces, services and sports, for example....is in recognition of some of the differences between the sexes - not because women as a group are oppressed. We have such safeguarding rules and they are based both on predictable risks and out of a sense of female dignity and worth.

sorry missed this bit

blackwithlight · 05/12/2024 13:34

I think I see the point you are making.

I went to a talk when ISIS were still active. A researcher was talking about the young women who went over. They had a shit time trapped in an overcrowded house together with nothing to do, where fights regularly broke out between women, until they agreed to marry a stranger. She said the women there likely realised things were not as promised but by then it was too late. There was no way for nearly all of them to escape. So then what is your choice? You can become depressed and despairing about your situation, or you can fully embrace it and become a fully militant, cheering at headchopping of infidels radical Islamist. The latter is psychologically and physically safer in that situation.

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/12/2024 13:36

Brefugee · 05/12/2024 13:33

In short, I'm more accepting of sex based differences now and have reconciled myself with them. And as such, i don't recognise British society as a patriarchal one. The reason we have singles sex spaces, services and sports, for example....is in recognition of some of the differences between the sexes - not because women as a group are oppressed. We have such safeguarding rules and they are based both on predictable risks and out of a sense of female dignity and worth.

sorry missed this bit

This type of sarcastic discussion is not one I usually engage in. If you can't be respectful of the the views and experiences of others then perhaps don't respond at all. This sort of post just generates animosity and bad feeling. I've no time for it. Those liitle videos just grate as well.