Do you ever think we should just embrace the patriarchy?

[TERFCat]

The videos of the medical students being told they can't continue their studies because they're women has broken my heart. Hundreds of innocent women having their dreams shattered, and for what? So that men can control us?!?

What I've taken from this, and the events of the past decade, is that our rights are fragile. Men will take every opportunity to claw them back. If there was a referendum in the Uk tomorrow to remove our freedoms, I'm sure over half of men would vote yes.

With this in mind, would it not be better for us to just embrace the patriarchy? It doesn't feel like we'll ever win the fight against it, so why don't we try to work with it?

Looking for a discussion on this.

This is just you. Maybe talk it through in therapy. I’ve been fighting for women’s rights since my teens, starting with accessing abortion information in my home country (where it was illegal) and I’m in my 50s. We’ve made enormous strides, and every single one has been hard-won. Deal with the stress and keep fighting. The suffragettes were stressed.

Embracing the patriarchy will bring the shroud upon you quicker.
What's happening to Afghan women is what happens when the patriarchy are in full dominance.
Children will be harmed.
It's not enough to live for your husband. Your husband should also be living for you. That's not going to happen in a society where the patriarchy is dominant because in those cultures the men are fucking multiple women and children. You become cattle.
There's no winning by submitting, only more swift losses for more people. Most of us are in the fight to protect our children.

I have been a part of women's rights for over 40 years. Mother, my grandmother and my great grandmothers showed me the way. I've seen the difference it made to women, children, society and the economy.

The Patriatchy is detrimental to all these things. Why embrace it @TERFCat ?

Fuck that. I grew up in a repressive patriarchal religious household and by the age of 10 had determined to escape as soon as I could. I got an education and a profession (thanks to all those women in generations past who fought for the right for me to do that) and have lived independently and alone all my adult life. I’m now nearly 50 and wouldn’t change a thing. The thought of being dependent on a man has always filled me with horror. I’ve known both ways - being a woman in a patriarchal family set up, and being independent, and I know which I’d choose 100 times out of 100.

Yes if I were an Afghan woman right now I’d not be sticking my head above the parapet, too much of a physical coward. I’d probably be scheming to leave the country if at all possible, or if not finding ways to make life as liveable as possible under the horrendous regime. I’d be looking for female solidarity, for instance. But I certainly wouldn’t be “embracing” the system or trying to kid myself I liked it.

It's starting to feel like we'll never win this war, and even if we did, we'd constantly have to protect our win against misogynists. This reality gets me down. The fight gets me stressed.

The alternative reality you present - bowing to the patriarchy, being the "surrendered wife"- would be a hell of a lot more stressful for many of us.

Honestly, I am quite jealous of the women I personally know who live for their husbands. Their lives seem easier than mine

But presumably the ones you know western women who have chosen to live like that. Not ones who've been forced to.

I think lots of women do embrace "the patriarchy " by accepting their inferiority, not asking for equality with their male partner etc . I find it hard to comprehend how many of my friends just accept it's their lot to do all childcare, mental labour etc etc even as their husbands careers go from strength to strength. It's one of the reasons things are as bad as they are.

Totally disagree that Afghan women need to sort it out themselves. How exactly are they meant to do that?

OP, can you describe what you mean by ‘embrace the patriarchy’? What would it mean for young women just starting their career? Women who don’t have male partners? What about widows who have no brothers or sons? What does it look like to you?

This was the exact comment I came to make.

I think for the women of Afghanistan, embracing the patriarchy would leave them in exactly the same position as they are now, except for a few women who might get meagre privileges in return for policing the other women.

So I don't think it would help the women of Afghanistan. They would still be women, which is what the Taliban have against them, and still subject to the same restrictions.

When I was at university fifty years ago there were equal number of male/female medical students. I have a female friend who works in large medical school (UK) and she told me that although the female medical students way outnumber the male students, the drop out rate once they are trained,is much higher for women. Statistically, the majority of female doctors choose general practice and often part time at that. Or they choose jobs that are flexible around families. Choosing a medical speciality involves longer training and far less flexibility about hospital location. There are far more women doctors than men in general practice and often and in certain areas of medicine. In the UK there is a huge desire to see women in very senior consultancy roles but female doctors don't choose these jobs.
Everyone in the world deplores what is going on in Afghanistan. It is evil and wrong. It is horrific to hear stories about the Taliban's treatment of women and treatment of other groups of people. I hope the Taliban fall hard and fast.
I do think though it is important to listen to women and recognise the majority of women want flexibility and choice in their working roles, particularly when they have families.
Like most of my friends, I worked hard all my life ( teacher). I am in my seventies and still work very part time in addition to childcare for my grandchildren ( 3 days a week). Despite what MN would have you think working and having children was harder back then because there were few nurseries or wrap around care schemes. The parents I meet at play groups and classes now all want flexible jobs. How many job share Head teachers, Senior Managers, Directors etc do you know? Many roles insist that the more senior you are the fewer opportunities for part time work. I know of women who had planned to share their maternity leave with husbands/ partners but changed their minds after their babies were born. Once women are part time they are statistically more likely to stay part time even though their children are at school, at secondary school, left home.
I don't know the answers. There is a lot of talk from the Government about encouraging women to remain economically active as they age but again statistically women choose to retire earlier or choose not to work at all compared to men of the same age. There is a lot of evidence to show that working outside the home is healthy and helps stave off dementia ( sadly so much more common in older women than men). There is a lot of resistance from some women to continue working in middle age and beyond. I don't know why.
I wish MN campaigned more vigorously for research to show why women are more likely to develop dementia as they age compared to men. I wish for a lot of things for future women. I don't wish for a return to the old fashioned patriarchy

I have some sympathy with your exhaustion. I used to tell male friends that the best way they could support feminism was not to make their wives/partners have to fight battles at home as well as outside it.

The thing is, the choice is to fight, or eventually slide back into being little more than a domesticated animal existing to serve men's needs, whatever they are. Child marriage for the paedophiles. To have lots of children (unassisted) and when that woman breaks, you get another one. Tough day at work? Go home and show that woman who's boss.
If you give a class of people or an individual absolute power over another class of people or another individual, they will inevitably abuse it.
So this is what you would be embracing. Maybe not in your generation, but for the generations coming after you.

You won't have the power to say, ok that crosses a line.

Presuming you're in the UK, I think your position is odd enough to ask whether you're depressed?

In some countries it may be in women's best interests to comply with the patriarchy (everyone has the right to put their survival ahead of fighting to practice medicine etc). I wouldn't call this 'embracing' the patriarchy though.

The UK is completely different though. Yes we have fights that still need to be won, but we have the fundamental rights that make it possible to live life on our own terms. To choose if and when we have children. To choose our careers. To buy and sell property. To travel independently. To divorce crap husbands....

Why on earth would we give up these rights because women in other countries don't have them? Who would it help?

Yes, @Whiteskies there's a heck of a lot of 'structural sexism' which still needs dealing with. Women can't 'have it all' because we can't do it all. Perhaps some of the societal changes needed- flexible working, proper recognition of caring responsibilities- might better be addressed by more men recognising it'd be good for them too. When my dd started school it simply didn't work with both of us working ft so I dropped to half. It would have been much better if we'd both been able to drop to a third or so, but it's just not part of many workplace cultures for men to make that request let alone be allowed to do it.

Erm, no thanks. Not for me. But you do you.

And often the man is already earning more anyway.

Hard oasis from me

Or a hard pass even.

Society still makes it hard for men to take on a caring role in the family. I notice at play sessions men are very much ignored. I counted three mothers at the last play session who brought their own mothers with them. There is still a strong matriarchal feeling that caring for the children is a woman's job, particularly from the women themselves.
I know when I was working full time there were the part timers who were very much on the edge of things. They did not want promotion, they did not want to help with activities outside their own roles.They often had children at secondary level but gave the feeling that they were winding work down. They were forties and fifties but had already given up on a career. I don't know why.
Women who work part time with no intention of ever going back to a full time job often move seamlessly from childcare to looking after their own parents. Not his parents though. In these situations men are expected to have a strong career which supports the whole family. You see on MN how terrible it is when these providers lose their jobs for any reason.
It is wonderful when we see women in powerful jobs, hopefully changing the way women work and changing the perception of society that women run the home and that is their only role. Women have so much to offer that it is the government's interest to continue to encourage and keep women in senior roles in industry, in education in medicine, in engineering etc. It would be foolish beyond measure to turn the clock back. No sane person wants that.

And why might that be?

The fight against women's oppression is hard, and it will never end: its not a case of fix it once and it will stay fixed.

But we have no choice but to carry on, and the situation in Afghanistan illustrates why.

I believe that patriarchy is the natural state of society, because of our differing reproductive roles, and the accompanying differences of physical power and aggressiveness. There has never been a society in which women dominate, or even have parity, Afghanistan being the extreme example.

So we're engaged in a constant firefight to mitigate the excesses of patriarchy, and the patriarchy fights back all the time.

(I see this as analogous to the problem of capitalism. It may well be the least worst economic system there is, but we still have to rein it in all the time to stop it eating both the environment and all the humans that rely on it for essential goods and the means to pay for them.)

So, on the one hand, I've embraced the patriarchy, in that I think it's inescapable.

And on the other hand...

Never give up! Never surrender!

Because of the structural sexism that ErrolTheDragon was talking about.
Obviously.

I get what you’re saying OP. One of my close friends worked in Afghanistan for years, building up women and girls, supporting their education, aiding the building of professional networks. At the bottom of a bottle of wine she’s now said she wishes she hadn’t, because she helped to give those women hope and dreams and made it so much worse when all that was ripped away again.

But no, I don’t agree, I think we have to keep fighting. The only “trad wives” I’ve come across who seem actually happy are those who actually have the financial freedom that it is a genuine choice. That’s not patriarchy, that’s an individual relationship choice. Patriarchy doesn’t come with choice.

Exactly.
It's one thing to be a trad wife if you can have your own bank account if you wanted it, or are allowed to divorce and will be allowed to see your kids if you do. Etc.

The situation of Afghan women is horrific, utterly horrific.

But I do think that in certain, desperate situations I would ‘embrace the patriarchy’. I re-watched the first episode of ‘Lost’ last night and wandered up to bed thinking that, in those circumstances, I probably would attach myself to the most powerful, competent man in the group as that would give me the best possible chances of survival.

No one has a responsibility to speak out against their own interests.

"If there was a referendum in the Uk tomorrow to remove our freedoms, I'm sure over half of men would vote yes."

An unpredictable number of women would, too. There are plenty of women championing the removal of women's safe spaces, including some senior female politicians who are not only highly educated university graduates but whose constituencies are at least 50% female.

During the suffrage movement there was also an anti suffrage sect led by women who actively campaigned against women getting the parliamentary vote. Some of them wrote articles and travelled all over the UK giving speeches on the subject in an attempt to prevent other women from voting.