DS old schoolmate being referred to as "they" by his DM

[drspouse]

Just as it says but a good deal of additional information:

My DS is 12 and is in specialist school and has a couple of different diagnoses. One of these he shares with this boy (who is in small nurturing mainstream) and my DS has zero local friends (I do mean zero - he's in a class of 5 at his school and seems to get on with them, but they all live at least an hour away, some are in care, some like him struggle with socialising, we aren't going to get together with these friends). He's now in a sports club he likes, and he loves swimming even if the session is noisy, so he's getting out and active but doesn't have any peers he sees. Ever.

Mum of friend and I are occasional coffee pals and mum has started referring to "Jake" as "they". Local friends who are GC and know this family say that boy may be distancing himself from possibly abusive ex of mum (Jake's dad). My DD (10) also knows this boy and says "how can he think he isn't a boy or a girl?". Mum knows I'm GC due to discussions we've had in the past, but we're cordial as we share other things in common, and she's said that Jake would like to meet up with DS over the school holidays. (as an aside, mum's message confused me as it said "they would like to see them" which may be her refusing to use sexed pronouns for anyone... or getting in a tangle with her grammar... or possibly meaning that Jake would like to see both DS and DD??!)

I feel that getting to know this boy again (they were in Reception and KS1 together and saw each other at clubs till lockdown) would be a step towards socialising, we have absolutely no other families willing to see us, even other parents with children the same age only see me separately. But I'm also worried about DS reaction to anyone referring to the boy as "they". DS spoken language is OK but not very sophisticated - he sometimes muddles his word order or grammar - and I am trying to work out what to say when DS either a) gets confused about who's being talked about or b) says something blunt!

If you were in this situation would you prewarn DS (he may not even notice) or just let it happen and explain at the time - which I would feel awkward about - I'm not going to say "oh Jake likes to use they/them pronouns" as DS would be extremely confused by that, nor am I going to say "Jake's mum can't use English properly but you just have to call him, him" or even "Jake thinks he isn't a girl or a boy but we know he's a boy so just call him, him" which would at least have the benefit of DS understanding what I'm on about.

DD totally gets the nonsense that is GI and is happy to go with "yes just like Aunty Amy is very large but we don't say SHE'S FAT to her face, Rowan thinks he's a girl though we know he's a boy and we don't shout YOU'RE A BOY every time we see him, and Jake thinks he's neither but there's no point in telling him he can't be neither" - but DS has the bluntness of many neurodiverse children and will happily shout IS THAT A MAN OR A LADY on the bus.

I wouldn’t encourage the friendship.

I wouldn’t see them tbh
I totally get that you want and need pals for your DS but if he is ND he is at risk of being influenced but this let alone the complexity of explaining the language to him right now

Put your energy into finding other friends for him- are there any ND groups locally or try drama or dance or craft clubs. If he’s already enjoying sports clubs he might be more open to socialising in the right circumstances than you think?

We've been trying to find clubs he will do and friends he will see for about 4 years. I can count the number of times he's seen peers outside school on the fingers of one hand. At this age, it's just not possible to arrange "playdates" because the DCs themselves would generally arrange their own social lives.

It's taken him those 4 years to go to one club, where he doesn't always participate, he will often sit on the side clinging to one of us, though he goes willingly. He's been through about 10 other clubs where he's been too anxious to participate and in many cases so anxious he's gone into fight or flight mode and been told not to come back either due to running away or due to battling one of us at the club.

There is zero chance he will spontaneously make friends that he will socialise with outside school at any of the clubs on offer. That is not going to happen and we've had to accept that isn't going to happen. We're happy for him to socialise at the club since this is all we get at the moment.

Our only options are friends who know us well enough that they will be willing to have a structured playdate like you would with a 5 year old. And most of those either have children that won't do that, or they won't because they have a (in fact, currently unjustified, but I can't really convince them of that) fear of DS.

It is very easy to say "don't see the family" when your DC has actual friends. I am not worried at all by DS being "influenced" by GI - he's as blunt as they come and thinks it's ridiculous that any man would think he can turn into a woman "and why would they want to". I'm more worried he's growing up as a sex essentialist and thinks women can't do hard thinking and men can't wash up, but we're working on that.

Your DS needs social opportunites and (in my experience) they're often not perfect. Can you just keep it very simple? If DS is confused then "JakesMum sometimes says "they" when she means Jake" If DS gets confused about who's who then repeat by using proper names "Jake means do you want to go to the park with Jake?" If JakesMum calls DS "they" to you then I would correct her - "DS is he." I can't see a situation where Jake will call himself "they". And don't correct DS's pronouns, that's too nitpicky and whatever DS says to Jake or his Mum is fine. If Jake complains and there's a quarrel they can sort it out, or not, it's part of social learning. If JakesMum gets shirty then stick to "DC uses the words he understands" and "The children need to sort it out between them". Jake is probably also limited in social opportunities and Jake and Jake's mum can use what language they like but they can't expect the whole world to bend to their preferences. That's part of social skills too.

If pronouns are a really huge a deal to Jake then maybe the friendship wont work. There are no guarantees and you can't smooth everything out. But it's worth a try, while it lasts.

It is very easy to say "don't see the family" when your DC has actual friends.

Your son needs healthy friendships. I would rather my child had no friends than be exposed to this gender nonsense.

I have no personal experience of a situation like this but do wonder ...

Do you feel able to say to the Mum concerned, you would like to agree to a meet up but you have concerns. And then, just as you have explained here, say why the language she is using will be a negative.

She should be made aware anyway, shouldn't she, because it could cause problems and she should know that her language might have contributed.

She may be using "they" for well worth it reasons (to her) but she cant expect everyone to just meekly go along.

Especially someone like your son.

Would she really put her use of pronouns above him being able to socialise and hopefully make a friend with her son?

And even if nothing else, her response will let you know how entrenched this is.

I think I'd do as suggested by @IwantToRetire . Speak to the mother first, make sure she's not going to admonish or lecture your son for using what she considers to be the 'wrong pronouns'.

I think it's great pity for your son not to make friends with "Jake". My son had issues (still has) and to see him so lonely and isolated was bloody heart breaking. Assuming "Jake" is a nice enough kid, I would certainly go for it. But, I would explain to his (their) mum that your son is autistic and doesn't understand or perceive things the same way as NT children. He might therefore not use Jake's chosen pronoun, although it won't of course be deliberate. If another mum said that to me, I would be more than understanding. Depends on Jake's mum really I suppose.

Does your child have any understanding of religion? As in you are not religious but he knows some people believe in God? Or the other way around. I've explained this to my ND kid by saying "we have different beliefs, we can't force them to have our beliefs and they can't force us to have their beliefs. So try not to say he/she/they just use his name"

Our 'friends' still dropped us though because we use the name instead of pronouns and they wanted affirmation affirmation affirmation.

I think you should base your decision on how much conversion is going on at school. If it's not happening at school and you are not worried someone is going to tell your kid they might be trans/nb then the friendship is worth it. But if your kid is already being indoctrinated (viewing special schools for my kid and it was everywhere there is a definite target in autistic kids) if already a risk he will be indoctrinated then to protect your kid drop the friendship. I sympathise though it's so hard when our kids have no friends

Thanks all - I'm not worried the mum will correct DS as she doesn't correct me and hasn't come out and said "Jake is non binary" or "Jake uses they them pronouns". I'm also not concerned about DS school as they are all busy making sure nobody sets fire to the place/runs away and they give us heads up on sex ed etc. (I have specifically asked about this too).

I have a feeling if I said "DS not understanding this is stemming from his black and white thinking" the mum would take this as "I think your son is also talking rubbish for the same reason" but I'm actually happy for her to think that so I can go with that if he says anything blunt!

I am pretty sure this is coming from Jake's older sibling who is getting on for 10 years older, but his school won't be helping.

We do go to church ourselves and he does kind of grasp that people believe different things but maybe not enough to think this daftness is along the lines of a centuries old tradition that permeates every tradition we have in the country - I agree that GI is a belief system but it's nowhere near as coherent and satisfying as I find our church to be. Though I suppose it has a lot in common with, say, the JWs.

@TheyDidntBurnWitchesTheyBurntWomen we looked at quite a few schools and this one is full of solid older chaps teaching and doing outdoor ed who would have no truck with nonsense! One of the others has mixed sex loos so we ran a mile!

I wouldn't pre-warn, I would just go ahead with playdates and let them figure it out between them.

I agree with this.

Like @ginasevern suggests, explain to the Jake's mother that your son is unable to use preferred pronouns. Why should the pronouns take priority over your son's disability? He is unable to do it, so that's that.

Does your son want friends outside school? It is something as parents we often feel our children need but it doesn’t mean your son does. He socialises in school and that might be enough for him. At home he might prefer to relax away from pressure to socialise.

I see he also enjoys sports clubs. There are peers there he is reacting with though not friendships. You don’t need to force friendships especially when the only basis for this one seems to be you are friends with the mum and he has a similar diagnosis.

At school he has children that are very very hard work (because they are all explosive like him - in fact, since he's become more able to handle his emotions, possibly more explosive - one of them bit him the other day).
I think he deserves to have more relaxed friends who he can enjoy spending time with.
He is socially anxious and the last thing he should do is only spend time with peers who are hard work, or on screens. The last thing to do for anxiety is avoid the thing you are anxious about.

@AdventCarols they were friends in primary school, and have similar interests - which is why they were friends. We don't know yet if that's enough to carry on the friendship, and we never will if we don't try.

Very belated update - as we only managed to get together over the holidays. Boys got on well and mum is apparently using "they" for every child in the world as she used it for my DS as well. I ignored, Jake didn't use any odd terms and we will repeat playdate another time.
It is hard to set up playdates at this age because it's not something parents do for preteens generally but Jake is slightly more socially able than DS and has more mainstream norms (i.e. unlike DS classmates he's neither playing GTA nor watching preschool TV).

Glad it was a success. Socialising for kids with ASCs can be such a minefield but social occasions are beneficial if the kids enjoy them!