Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
29
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/11/2024 17:29

Thanl you everyone here. I have been working and will catch up on the threads eventually!

This case is on my gardening list for December, they still need seeds. I have a monthly gardening budget because there are so many gardens needing care so I can't plant more before the start of the month.

Bannedontherun · 27/11/2024 17:32

prh47bridge · 27/11/2024 17:10

Disagree with the courts applying the letter of the law, however absurd. I can think of a number of cases where the courts have said that an outcome is so absurd it cannot be what parliament meant.

The job of the courts is to interpret the law. They will not go for a meaning that cannot be supported by the words in the law, but nor will they go for a meaning that is absurd unless there is really no other way the words can be interpreted.

Thanks i was about to say that but i am not a lawyer. (As you probably are aware)

Is it also correct to say that FWS are seeking striking the Scottish courts decision out and replacing that decision with their own.

And that the Supreme Court can either agree with the Scottish interpretation, or as above,

I don’t see how the Supreme Court can avoid one or the other proposition, and just shrug its shoulders.

Finally as i understand it they can set aside case law references as referred to by all sides and source their own in preference.

To everyone i feel reasonably optimistic as i thought Crawford instead of her intended clarifications, really further exposed the absurdities of the Scottish interpretation.

Appalonia · 27/11/2024 17:33

I had a look at that Chat GPT ' Judge' and screenshot its conclusions. Interesting...

For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
BabaYagasHouse · 27/11/2024 17:36

BabaYagasHouse · 27/11/2024 17:10

Just catching up with today.
Thanks to all for taking the time to keep us updated.
And a separate thanks to Utopia, for making this excellent big picture point.
This really is the context this is all happening in isn't it?
I also appreciate Chilling's earlier point about the eternal fight.
Depressing, but powerful too.
I'm forever grateful for the day I found FWR and the awakening that has brought.

Ignorance is bliss, but insight lights a fire!

Oh! I thought I'd quoted Utopias list of women's various fights in court but I hadn't and now can't find it!

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 27/11/2024 17:43

BabaYagasHouse · 27/11/2024 17:36

Oh! I thought I'd quoted Utopias list of women's various fights in court but I hadn't and now can't find it!

Here you go https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5218934-for-women-scotland-in-supreme-court-thread-2?reply=140133838&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

WarriorN · 27/11/2024 17:48

Jumping on to place mark, thanks for keeping the thread updated. Will go back to read both

UtopiaPlanitia · 27/11/2024 17:54

Ignorance is bliss, but insight lights a fire!

I love this @BabaYagasHouse it’s a very apt description our current situation.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 18:03

Superstars.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 18:04

Bloody missed the afternoon, but seems we can watch tomorrow. Hooray!

For Women Scotland in Supreme court - thread 2
OP posts:
ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 27/11/2024 18:18

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2024 18:03

Superstars.

How tall is Ben Cooper??

ChaChaChooey · 27/11/2024 18:20

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 27/11/2024 18:18

How tall is Ben Cooper??

Looks to be about a full Greg Davies!

YellowRoom · 27/11/2024 18:24

I shouldn't be shocked, i should know better but i'm still astonished that when considering men's wants, the needs of women aren't even considered.

My work has made all our toilets mixed-sex. When I asked what consultation was done with women - tumbleweed. Impact assessment - tumbleweed. That this has been decided on but no-one actually bothered to tell the workforce - tumbleweed. And so on. They simply did not consider women.

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 18:25

EvelynBeatrice · 27/11/2024 16:53

I’m very much afraid that the court will grab the lifeline from EHRC, declare the law a mess requiring parliamentary resolution, and in the meantime find for the Scottish government on a strict literal reading of the legislation. The courts are not concerned with justice but applying the letter of the law, however absurd.

The fact that the Gender Recognition Act has specific exclusions- for succession to titles and peerages etc - doesn’t help, suggesting as it does that otherwise the person is to be treated for all purposes as being of the acquired gender. Says it all that no thought was given to protecting natal females from abuse, but protection of males inheriting titles was right up there.

Hope I’m wrong about the Supreme Court.

This goes potentially three ways:

  1. the Supreme court rule in favour of women,
  2. the Supreme court rule in favour of men who say they are women and this blows up in Labour's face as Pandora Box is opened and this is spelt out in all its glory leading to this rumbling on for years, though Labour are likely to do their best attempt at burying it (without much success and giving ENORMOUS political capital to the right) or
  3. the Supreme court rule that this must go back to Parliament. In which case, it blows up in Labour's face with them forced to take on the subject head first and there be a huge public debate on the matter.

Let me make this clear. We have hit a point where there is no winning scenario for TRAs here - not in the long run. The only scenario that works for Labour, is the court ruling in favour of women.

Don't underestimate just how much the political landscape has changed in the last month. It has. Massively.

If it is thrown back to parliament it puts Labour in a position they DO NOT want to be in at this political moment.

It means they will SOLELY be responsible for the legislation that is needed to replace it. They can't look to deflect or shove the blame elsewhere.

They will NOT want such huge focus an attention on the concept of womanhood, because a) if they try to shaft women there will be a whole pile of people who will be on the case who are very much paying attention to the whole subject, for their own political reasons, not necessarily just in this country - theres an orange guy who is going to flog this to death for his own domestic advantage in his own gun touting country and b) if they are seen to shaft transwomen they will get a back lash there with the ranks of their own supporters. Its Lose / Lose for Labour cos they've tried to do their best to avoid the subject but this would force them into a situation where they can't.

It is now a focal point issue that isn't actually just about women's rights.

It will put Labour in an even worse bide for future strategy than the Democrats in the US, because they are the incumbent government and Labour's relationship with the incoming US admistration isn't great. It will be used. The Democrats, can to an extent, regroup and work this out behind closed doors for now but this becoming an issue here, gives political capital to Republicans in the US. Throwing this back to parliament wouldn't allow Labour to hide under a rock about it and would put them on the front line of a Republican/Democrat flash point - they will be effectively a political proxy point for the ongoing US culture war. That is not where you will want your government to be. There's not a chance Elon Musk will keep his gob shut if it goes back to parliament because its a matter of personal emotional investiment and political self interest.

Within Labour it could lead to a significant amount of infighting - not because Labour MPs suddenly have worked out what a woman is, but because they will start to realise JUST how toxic that bill is - especially if they don't get it right. As I say theres a queue forming to try and take out the UK's participation in the ECHR, never mind whats going on in the US.

I note at this point, you also have Wes Streeting who has put himself into a position of acknowledging what a woman is with the Darlington nurses. Thats kinda awkward - it puts him potentially on a direct collision course with Starmer if Starmer intends a terrible fudge throwing women under the bus in the process. This isn't an insignificant flash point. Its been said before that Streeting has political ambitions.

If there's infighting, this could drag the issue out over the course of some time during this parliament. Thus overshadowing a whole pile of other important stuff too. Its your Weapons Grade Dead Cat Event. Its got potential Brexit Levels of Internal Strife written all over this.

The potential fall out also could take them out of government if they are not very careful. Their election victory, is a lot more wafer thin than the number of seats they have, reflects. The numbers just are NOT there for them to cope with a backlash - typically a sitting government rarely is able to match seats at reelection as it is. If thrown back to Parliament and Labour don't win reelection, if Labour screw the pooch, this will be one of those areas that gets looked at rapidly by the next government. Cos over The Pond.

Honestly, this is something Labour won't want to touch with a barge poll if they can help it in anyway. Look whats ALREADY happened to the SNP over this. (And arguably the Greens to a lesser extent. And the LD aren't exactly, all friends over the subject).

Also noting timings on this:
This ruling isn't going to come until 'the Spring'. So thats likely March at the earliest. Then you are into the Easter recess anyway. Usually it takes a while for a bill to be scheduled time in parliament, then read, then passed. This can be done very quickly if urgent but how urgent would this be classified? - especially in view of potential infighting. So the EARLIEST possible time this would land in Parliament's lap, if it goes that way, its liable to be early summer but its probably going to be later than that, and it wouldn't surprise me if it get shunted back to next Autumn as a reasonable guestimation. If they prioritise it. Why is that significant? Well there's a Canadian Election thats going to be held sometime between now and October 2025... Again, this isn't a subject thats going away any time soon. This issue is going to flare up somewhat running into that - cos Trump and Musk will see the Canadian Election as another opportunity... Otherwise this has the potential to rumble on for years, with the public getting more and more fed up with attention on this and not other issues and the sheer abursity of the conversation in the first place.

To summarise: If it doesn't go the way of women, this will turn into a ongoing clusterfuck for Labour because they tried to dodge the subject and kick the can down the road so they didn't have to actually deal with it like they should.

The Dems are going to struggle to dissavow themselves with this and Trump will make changes to make it harder to get back in power.

There are few possible moves left to make here. We've definitely reached something of tipping point, where its all going to start unravelling one way or another imo. Its just a question of how, how far and how quickly.

What's that phrase again 'Wrong side of history'? Sadly if you are the wrong side of material reality, it always eventually catches up with you. You can only sustain a lie, any lie, for so long.

OvaHere · 27/11/2024 18:28

Just managed to catch up with this thread. Thank you all for the commentary as it was happening. I wonder if the judges realised the gravity of this case before the last two days or whether it's sunk in as the proceedings happened?

musicalfrog · 27/11/2024 18:30

I don't know about anyone else but I'm feeling really quite dejected and tearful this evening. The Baileys probably isn't helping.

I'm glad we are all able to discuss this together here.

OvaHere · 27/11/2024 18:32

Great analysis @RedToothBrush

larklane17 · 27/11/2024 18:32

Appalonia · 27/11/2024 17:33

I had a look at that Chat GPT ' Judge' and screenshot its conclusions. Interesting...

@Appalonia Sorry, the thread is moving fast so only noticed now your post.
I didn't even know that existed! So interesting to read it.

AlbertCamusflage · 27/11/2024 18:32

I'm confused now, @RedToothBrush . Surely the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to refer any law back to parliament? They just interpret its meaning as they understand it, and their interpretation then stands as the actual substance of the law? Is that not right?

Perhaps they can make some additional announcement to the effect that the law has perverse consequences so that legislation would be advisable. I don't know.

IwantToRetire · 27/11/2024 18:36

I’m very much afraid that the court will grab the lifeline from EHRC, declare the law a mess requiring parliamentary resolution, and in the meantime find for the Scottish government on a strict literal reading of the legislation. The courts are not concerned with justice but applying the letter of the law, however absurd.

I think it isn't a "lifeline" from the EHRC, but as in the Lady Haldane ruling, the wording of the EA, and how the GRA interacts with the characteristic of sex. ie assuming the default is that TW with a GRC AW. Which is why the SSE were written, because otherwise there would never be an occassion when genuinely biological women could ask for and get support from other biological women.

So whilst I hope FWS are sucessful, many have asked who gave them the advice that a court could change a law, however badly written. And hopefully not those who are being paid via donations.

If they do lose, then it is time to put pressure on the 2 headed Labour Minister for Women to follow up the work started by the Petitions to Parliament to change the wording of the EA.

And with the EHRC say the wording is a muddle, this strengthens the case to do this, as they are the group that officially exists to interpret the law. So if it doesn't make sense to them, just in terms of legal definitions, it surely shows this cant go on any longer.

Though as a realist, even if by some bizarre chance Labour does allow this to happen (as the current Government) we can all be totally sure that the TRAs will continue to push the boundaries of women's rights, women's biological reality, and the right for sex to be a protected characteristic as the others are. With no legal certificate impinging on the reality of a characteristic.

Mmmnotsure · 27/11/2024 18:37

@RedToothBrush

I always appreciate your posts, thank you.

Also, you could add in to this that Kemi Badenoch is probably the last person Labour would want here atm as opposition leader, given her stance and history in this area.

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2024 18:37

AlbertCamusflage · 27/11/2024 18:32

I'm confused now, @RedToothBrush . Surely the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to refer any law back to parliament? They just interpret its meaning as they understand it, and their interpretation then stands as the actual substance of the law? Is that not right?

Perhaps they can make some additional announcement to the effect that the law has perverse consequences so that legislation would be advisable. I don't know.

They could say that there's clearly a problem with the law and that there's a conflict that needs to be addressed in their ruling.

This could be a ruling that ultimately goes in favour of either group but they highlight the inadequacy of the law as part of that ruling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/11/2024 18:38

Also, you could add in to this that Kemi Badenoch is probably the last person Labour would want here atm as opposition leader, given her stance and history in this area.

I agree, I hope she holds their feet to the fire on it.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.