Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

465 replies

Ingenieur · 18/11/2024 09:33

Starting a new thread in case the first fills up.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2024 01:00

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 00:49

Like I said, why would I bother? You have a laundry list of arguments pre-prepped as to why you'll disregard any evidence that contradicts your views.

Convenient.

If that is what you think, prove it. Post your evidence.

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2024 01:00

Convenient.

If that is what you think, prove it. Post your evidence.

I am protecting my peace 😇

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2024 01:04

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:01

I am protecting my peace 😇

Yes, cognitive dissonance is painful.

Without asking you to do anything as gauche as actually post your evidence, can you just tell me whether you have in fact seen this evidence, or do you simply feel very strongly that it must exist?

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:05

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2024 01:04

Yes, cognitive dissonance is painful.

Without asking you to do anything as gauche as actually post your evidence, can you just tell me whether you have in fact seen this evidence, or do you simply feel very strongly that it must exist?

Not for me particularly. I am comfortable with contradictions. They make life interesting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:06

No, anti-trans laws are deeply unpopular here.

Sure, that's a winning position Grin so you aren't actually a centrist then? Goodo.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:09

Unlikely. Reading evidence that is contrary to our views just further entrenches our views.

Really. Guess that explains your ideological stance then.

I don't need to agree with evidence, but I need to be able to explain why I don't think it's relevant/compelling. And I can, whether that explanation is convincing or not, it's genuine. How about you?

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:06

No, anti-trans laws are deeply unpopular here.

Sure, that's a winning position Grin so you aren't actually a centrist then? Goodo.

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/icymi-new-survey-finds-anti-trans-ads-ineffective-disliked-by-voters

Yes, I am a centrist. I can't vote in the U.S. but would vote Dem if I could, as it's very binary here vs other countries with multiple parties.

ICYMI: New Survey Finds Anti-Trans Ads Ineffective, Disliked by Voters

Data for Progress finds that among likely voters, Democrats, Independents and Republicans alike don’t want to see “mean-spirited” ads targeting the…

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/icymi-new-survey-finds-anti-trans-ads-ineffective-disliked-by-voters

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2024 01:14

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:05

Not for me particularly. I am comfortable with contradictions. They make life interesting.

Ah, like War is peace, Freedom is slavery, Ignorance is strength, PinkChestnut's car is my car, that sort of thing?

Political, social and legal contradictions do indeed make life "interesting" for those who are privileged enough to put their thumb on the scales of whichever side benefits them the most at any given point.

For the people without social power, they are just one more way the powerful play "heads I win, tails you lose".

FlirtsWithRhinos · 20/11/2024 01:17

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:05

Not for me particularly. I am comfortable with contradictions. They make life interesting.

Oh, and by the way, can you just tell me whether you have in fact seen this 20 year evidence, or do you simply feel very strongly that it must exist?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:19

Yes, I am a centrist. I can't vote in the U.S. but would vote Dem if I could, as it's very binary here vs other countries with multiple parties.

Your survey is pre election, and doesn't deal with the fact that the ad campaign did resonate with the small number of swing states, possibly because pretending to believe in ludicrous things makes one seem irrational and untrustworthy as I suggested. The discussion for that is upthread.

In a way that wouldn't necessarily play in the firmly red or blue states that already have their stance and aren't swayed easily.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:20

Oh, and by the way, can you just tell me whether you have in fact seen this 20 year evidence, or do you simply feel very strongly that it must exist?

I got the impression it was hypothetical. Which of course it would be, or I imagine FWR would have seen it by now.

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:19

Yes, I am a centrist. I can't vote in the U.S. but would vote Dem if I could, as it's very binary here vs other countries with multiple parties.

Your survey is pre election, and doesn't deal with the fact that the ad campaign did resonate with the small number of swing states, possibly because pretending to believe in ludicrous things makes one seem irrational and untrustworthy as I suggested. The discussion for that is upthread.

In a way that wouldn't necessarily play in the firmly red or blue states that already have their stance and aren't swayed easily.

See? You came up with a nice reason for yourself why you could disregard evidence presented to you so you could remain entrenched in your beliefs and feel unchallenged in them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:23

See? You came up with a nice reason for yourself why you could disregard evidence presented to you

I made it clear what I would do, and I did it Smile I explained in detail why I think your survey two weeks before the election doesn't contradict the evidence I think is more telling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:24

The evidence, that is clear, that most people think gender identity ideology is bobbins, however unimportant they find it.

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:23

See? You came up with a nice reason for yourself why you could disregard evidence presented to you

I made it clear what I would do, and I did it Smile I explained in detail why I think your survey two weeks before the election doesn't contradict the evidence I think is more telling.

Mmkay. I disagree.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:26

I made it clear what I would do, and I did it I explained in detail why I think your survey two weeks before the election doesn't contradict the evidence I think is more telling.

The question, is whether you can actually refute that point I made, rather than vaguely complaining that I made it @PinkChesnut

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:26

Looking forward to your killer argument.

IdylicDay · 20/11/2024 01:30

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:00

No, anti-trans laws are deeply unpopular here.

You mean PRO-WOMENS RIGHTS laws?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:34

Just so you have the evidence I am referring to here

archive.ph/2024.11.16-004201/www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/kamala-harris-trans-gender-democrat-election-campaign-kvzqz9d6c

"With the race against Harris on a knife-edge, the change of tack was a gamble. Opinion polls showed that transgender issues were among the least important issues driving voters.

But Tony Fabrizio, Trump’s chief pollster, began testing the anti-trans ad and found that it cut through strongly with men but also with <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/afxd1/www.thetimes.com/article/white-women-donald-trump-democratic-party-8jv628b38" rel="nofollow" target="blank">suburban womenn. This crucial voting bloc, who had deserted Trump for Joe Biden in 2020, were pivotal to Harris’s hopes of victory.

When it began airing in September, the ad had an instant impact.

Harris’s team struggled to muster a response. Campaign staff initially dismissed the Republican attacks. A Democrat ad to counter the “they/them” attack tested poorly and never ran.

The Trump ad gained momentum when the radio host Charlamagne tha God drew attention to it on his show, The Breakfast Club, which is influential with the black voters courted by both candidates. The ad prompted an on-air debate about LGBT rights and the fixation with gender ideology on the far-left.

“That was nuts… When you hear the narrator say Kamala supports tax-payer funded sex changes for prisoners, that one line, I’m like ‘Hell no, I don’t want my tax-payer dollars going to that’,” Charlamagne said. “That ad was impactful.”

Trump’s team used clips from Charlamagne’s show to cut another ad, piling on the pressure. Asked about the issue in an <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/afxd1/www.thetimes.com/article/key-takeaways-kamala-harris-interview-fox-news-xxx9zlrrz" rel="nofollow" target="blank">interview with Fox Newss in October, Harris offered only a limp response.
“I will follow the law, a law that Donald Trump actually followed,” the vice-president said. Harris’s campaign insisted that her message of unity would win out, despite feedback from activists on the ground that the anti-trans message was resonating with voters. There were calls from senior Democrats, including Bill Clinton, the former president, to rebut Trump’s claim more forcefully.

“Even the Democrats knew this was a killer for them,” Schilling said. “This is not rocket science. This is Politics 101. They are trying to change America’s view of gender, and that’s so deep-seated.”

The campaign was right that the majority of Americans are uncomfortable with the pace of change on views of gender — slightly more than half (55 per cent) of voters said that support for transgender rights in government and society had gone too far, according to AP VoteCast, a survey of more than 120,000 people who cast ballots nationwide."

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:38

IdylicDay · 20/11/2024 01:30

You mean PRO-WOMENS RIGHTS laws?

No. I mean anti-trans laws.

These laws are not about women at all. They just cloak it in that to make you support it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:41

So what you're saying is that you don't think the Democrats need to modify their approach to sex based rights v "trans rights" at all @PinkChesnut?

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:34

Just so you have the evidence I am referring to here

archive.ph/2024.11.16-004201/www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/kamala-harris-trans-gender-democrat-election-campaign-kvzqz9d6c

"With the race against Harris on a knife-edge, the change of tack was a gamble. Opinion polls showed that transgender issues were among the least important issues driving voters.

But Tony Fabrizio, Trump’s chief pollster, began testing the anti-trans ad and found that it cut through strongly with men but also with <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/afxd1/www.thetimes.com/article/white-women-donald-trump-democratic-party-8jv628b38" rel="nofollow" target="blank">suburban womenn. This crucial voting bloc, who had deserted Trump for Joe Biden in 2020, were pivotal to Harris’s hopes of victory.

When it began airing in September, the ad had an instant impact.

Harris’s team struggled to muster a response. Campaign staff initially dismissed the Republican attacks. A Democrat ad to counter the “they/them” attack tested poorly and never ran.

The Trump ad gained momentum when the radio host Charlamagne tha God drew attention to it on his show, The Breakfast Club, which is influential with the black voters courted by both candidates. The ad prompted an on-air debate about LGBT rights and the fixation with gender ideology on the far-left.

“That was nuts… When you hear the narrator say Kamala supports tax-payer funded sex changes for prisoners, that one line, I’m like ‘Hell no, I don’t want my tax-payer dollars going to that’,” Charlamagne said. “That ad was impactful.”

Trump’s team used clips from Charlamagne’s show to cut another ad, piling on the pressure. Asked about the issue in an <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/afxd1/www.thetimes.com/article/key-takeaways-kamala-harris-interview-fox-news-xxx9zlrrz" rel="nofollow" target="blank">interview with Fox Newss in October, Harris offered only a limp response.
“I will follow the law, a law that Donald Trump actually followed,” the vice-president said. Harris’s campaign insisted that her message of unity would win out, despite feedback from activists on the ground that the anti-trans message was resonating with voters. There were calls from senior Democrats, including Bill Clinton, the former president, to rebut Trump’s claim more forcefully.

“Even the Democrats knew this was a killer for them,” Schilling said. “This is not rocket science. This is Politics 101. They are trying to change America’s view of gender, and that’s so deep-seated.”

The campaign was right that the majority of Americans are uncomfortable with the pace of change on views of gender — slightly more than half (55 per cent) of voters said that support for transgender rights in government and society had gone too far, according to AP VoteCast, a survey of more than 120,000 people who cast ballots nationwide."

Views on gender are already changed. The number of trans kids I meet that are at risk of homelessness has halved since I started educating youth in extracurricular settings 14 years ago.

An article about one ad which mainly plays on immigration fears is not convincing to me.

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 01:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:41

So what you're saying is that you don't think the Democrats need to modify their approach to sex based rights v "trans rights" at all @PinkChesnut?

Why do you need me to say it again?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:44

An article about one ad which mainly plays on immigration fears is not convincing to me.

The ad was the Kamala is for they/them one. How does that play on immigration fears exactly? Not saying you're wrong, just want to understand.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 01:46

Why do you need me to say it again?

Yes, to be fair there is no need for you to repeat that you are a genderist who doesn't understand what a problem it is for people.