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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A Review of Academic Use of the Term "Minor Attracted Persons"

94 replies

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/11/2024 19:50

I came across this journal article thanks to Mike Salter (Professor of Criminology) posting the following tweet:

https://x.com/mike_salter/status/1854700225648378001

'Our review of academic use of the term "minor attracted people" is now published in Trauma Violence Abuse, highlighting the conceptual, political and empirical problems with characterising paedophiles as an oppressed sexual minority
^https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15248380241270028^'

I thought I'd post the tweet and link to the article in FWR as this a subject that is of interest and concern to many contributors here.

OP posts:
LilyBartsHatShop · 13/11/2024 05:02

Fgfgfg · 12/11/2024 19:19

Wouldn't let me edit but the charity mentioned in my previous post offer an online course to help people manage their thoughts and behaviours. WARNING: some of the topics could be distressing.
https://www.stopitnow.org.uk/concerned-about-your-own-thoughts-or-behaviour/help-with-inappropriate-thoughts-or-behaviour/self-help/understanding-the-behaviour/

Thanks for this.
It's difficult (emotionally) to read but I'm trying to hear from the other side because my experience tells me that this kind of approach is barking up the wrong tree.
I've been involved with lots of CSA survivor peer support groups, I've worked as a psychatric nurse on wards, in the community, and at a GP clinic. I've heard alot of survivor stories and I've never heard from a victim who was abused by someone who fits the academic idea of a paedophile / MAP. It always involves sadism, the person abusing the child has chosen a child as a victim because fear and confusion and overwhelm in another person turn them on. An adult with severe disabilities would fit the bill just as well.
The idea that it's somewhat like falling in love with a child and wanting to consumate that is something I've only ever read in psychologist's case studies and fiction. Where "grooming" is like chocolates and roses, rather than gradually pushing the boundaries of both the child and other adults who care for her/him (with lots of plausible deniability) so that the child realises no adult is going to do anything to protect them anyway.
I think the psychologists and other academics are being taken for fools by very clever sex offenders. And I think people who write fiction about CSA without knowing what they're talking about are shits.

ArabellaScott · 13/11/2024 06:39

Agree, Lily. Charitably, some people may just struggle to fathom that bad people exist.

timenowplease · 13/11/2024 08:11

MelodyMalone · 11/11/2024 21:34

If there's one thing pretty much everyone except "MAPs" agrees on, it's that being a "MAP" is a Very Bad Thing.

So I doubt an attempted name change will get them very far.

I wonder about that.

'Trans rights' and the made up language around the movement became mainstream and supported in a very short space of time. So it seems actually quite easy to introduce new concepts to the general public who will think and say what academics tell them to think and say.

Faffertea · 13/11/2024 08:12

I can’t articulate this well currently but it seems to me that this all fits in with the take over of Queer Theory and post modern ideas about being liberal into academia and the whole champagne socialists/metropolitan elite we’ve been seeing in politics in the last few years.
Academics happy to use these terms because it’s part of a wider attitude about how being a “good” or progressive person (especially in left wing circles) means not making ethical or moral judgments on anything, shaming others is always bad and repressive.

Thelnebriati · 13/11/2024 08:13

I think the psychologists and other academics are being taken for fools by very clever sex offenders.

I agree, and I think some people shouldn't be working with sex offenders. Institutions should be screening applicants for risks such as gullibility and naivety, and overseeing them to check they aren't being groomed or coerced.
Convicted offenders are often charming and clever, its how they groom people. Its a power trip and its all part of the game to them. Psychologists should know better than to imagine they are immune from being conned or groomed.

Thelnebriati · 13/11/2024 08:17

''Academics happy to use these terms because it’s part of a wider attitude about how being a “good” or progressive person (especially in left wing circles) means not making ethical or moral judgments on anything, shaming others is always bad and repressive.''

There's also been a change in counselling services over the last few decades, the shift has been in personal standards of behaviour for counsellors. That change seems to be spreading. It may have started as 'we are only human' but its moved to 'we shouldn't judge even if our standards fall short of ideal.'
But standards are needed when you are working with vulnerable or dangerous people.

MelodyMalone · 13/11/2024 08:34

I hope not. Child sexual abuse is much more widely reviled than "transsexualism", as it used to be called, has ever been - in the past, the latter was generally seen as unusual but not unacceptable or for that matter illegal. I think it would be a lot harder to get the public to accept that paedophilia is fine and dandy. Hope so anyway.

Not least, because most people have children/grandchildren/nieces/nephews etc who they want to protect.

Bobbymoore123 · 13/11/2024 09:35

MarieDeGournay · 11/11/2024 20:29

I've had a quick read of the actual article, and as far as I can see it is highly critical of the term MAP and its role in 'destigmatising' child abuse.
It does NOT support the term MAP, it sees it as dangerous and advises academics to avoid it and be careful of using it in research.

This is from the conclusion:
the transposition of the terminology of MAPs from online pedophile networks to the academic community has brought with it a questionable set of commitments, including comparisons between pedophiles and oppressed sexual minorities, and the recommendation that sexual interest in children is “de-stigmatised.”

Such conclusions do not originate within the academic or scientific literature, but were first formulated by the pro-pedophile advocacy movement, which predates MAPs scholarship by several decades. It should not be a surprise that scholars who source their research participants from such organizations will find their data is skewed toward the agenda of those organizations, however, this likelihood was rarely countenanced in the MAPs scholarship.

What's wrong with that?

The Mumsnet feminism board not reading the research and instead jumping to reactionary conclusions? How uncommon...

saynotofondant · 13/11/2024 09:37

Fgfgfg · 12/11/2024 19:11

This charity operates a helpline for a range of issues including people concerned about their thoughts towards children.
https://www.stopitnow.org.uk/helpline/

I saw a lot of adverts on Reddit for the Stop It Now helpline a few months ago!

(I thought they were on the money with their targeting there.)

Stop It Now is an initiative of the Lucy Faithfull Foundation.
“The Lucy Faithfull Foundation is a UK-wide child protection charity that works to stop child sexual abuse.
We’re here for everyone who needs us.
We protect children by working with people who pose a sexual risk and diverting them from causing harm. We support individuals and families who have been affected by abuse. And we help professionals who work with families to create safer environments for children.
We run the confidential Stop It Now helpline and Shore, a website for teenagers.”

I remember an interview in the Guardian with an employee of the Foundation, who said that the profile of paedophiles had massively changed since the ubiquity of online porn. Men who’d not previously sexualised children started to do it to get a new “hit”, break a new taboo, and some didn’t stop and think about what they were doing and that that meant they were paedophiles.

Really interesting find OP, thank you.

MelodyMalone · 13/11/2024 09:39

Bobbymoore123 · 13/11/2024 09:35

The Mumsnet feminism board not reading the research and instead jumping to reactionary conclusions? How uncommon...

I fear you have misunderstood the thread. Nobody was criticising the original article.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/11/2024 09:39

Bobbymoore123 · 13/11/2024 09:35

The Mumsnet feminism board not reading the research and instead jumping to reactionary conclusions? How uncommon...

What's reactionary about opposing paedophilia in all its forms?
It's a bit of an odd claim to make on a feminist board but you do you I suppose 😕

saynotofondant · 13/11/2024 09:41

Bobbymoore123 · 13/11/2024 09:35

The Mumsnet feminism board not reading the research and instead jumping to reactionary conclusions? How uncommon...

No, the misunderstanding was on the part of this poster, not the OP. It was cleared up later in the thread. Basically everyone (the academics who wrote the paper, the OP, and this poster) were all criticising the same thing: people sanitising paedophiles by calling them MAPs.

Lovelyview · 13/11/2024 09:53

Bobbymoore123 · 13/11/2024 09:35

The Mumsnet feminism board not reading the research and instead jumping to reactionary conclusions? How uncommon...

A random paedophilia apologist coming on the Feminism board and misunderstanding the thread. Strange times.

DeanElderberry · 13/11/2024 10:01

There are areas (RTE radio, looking at you, but it's everywhere including on MN) where any criticism of people's sexual behavior seems to be taboo. But there's plenty of judgement and stigmatising around eating habits.

I'm also reminded of a colleague back in the late 80s getting furious with a few of us (mostly but not all women) when we said we didn't intend to go to the latest very violent X-rated movie because we were self censoring and all censorship was wrong.

quantumbutterfly · 13/11/2024 10:08

Thelnebriati · 13/11/2024 08:17

''Academics happy to use these terms because it’s part of a wider attitude about how being a “good” or progressive person (especially in left wing circles) means not making ethical or moral judgments on anything, shaming others is always bad and repressive.''

There's also been a change in counselling services over the last few decades, the shift has been in personal standards of behaviour for counsellors. That change seems to be spreading. It may have started as 'we are only human' but its moved to 'we shouldn't judge even if our standards fall short of ideal.'
But standards are needed when you are working with vulnerable or dangerous people.

One female NHS counsellor told me that some children enjoy the experience, ( her phrasing ). If she was trying to explore the shame, guilt & self loathing of a survivor she was pretty clumsy in her phrasing.

quantumbutterfly · 13/11/2024 10:11

Bobbymoore123 · 13/11/2024 09:35

The Mumsnet feminism board not reading the research and instead jumping to reactionary conclusions? How uncommon...

Have you actually read the thread?

DeanElderberry · 13/11/2024 10:17

I remember years ago a man who was involved in a charity supporting survivors of CSA saying that he could see, looking back, that young teenage him had been particularly vulnerable because he was gay and craving male affection, and that of course his body reacted to stimulation (rapists always know about that), but that that did not change the fact that his adult abuser was an abuser who harmed him. And that of course the abuser had no interest in him, just in an available and accessible young body, easily replaceable when it got stale.

quantumbutterfly · 13/11/2024 10:24

DeanElderberry · 13/11/2024 10:17

I remember years ago a man who was involved in a charity supporting survivors of CSA saying that he could see, looking back, that young teenage him had been particularly vulnerable because he was gay and craving male affection, and that of course his body reacted to stimulation (rapists always know about that), but that that did not change the fact that his adult abuser was an abuser who harmed him. And that of course the abuser had no interest in him, just in an available and accessible young body, easily replaceable when it got stale.

Indeed. It's baggage that needs to be unpacked very carefully.
Even better if we could prevent it happening.

DeanElderberry · 13/11/2024 10:33

And we can only unpack that if we accept that sex can be harmful, and that response and consent are not the same thing, and that adults should not be pushing children into exploring sex when they are not yet mentally able to understand and control what is happening.

quantumbutterfly · 13/11/2024 10:46

DeanElderberry · 13/11/2024 10:33

And we can only unpack that if we accept that sex can be harmful, and that response and consent are not the same thing, and that adults should not be pushing children into exploring sex when they are not yet mentally able to understand and control what is happening.

Absolutely.

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/11/2024 10:51

DeanElderberry · 13/11/2024 10:01

There are areas (RTE radio, looking at you, but it's everywhere including on MN) where any criticism of people's sexual behavior seems to be taboo. But there's plenty of judgement and stigmatising around eating habits.

I'm also reminded of a colleague back in the late 80s getting furious with a few of us (mostly but not all women) when we said we didn't intend to go to the latest very violent X-rated movie because we were self censoring and all censorship was wrong.

I’m listening to the recent episode of Gia Milinovich’s podcast (The Cluster F Theory) where she and her co-host are discussing Sarah Ditum’s book Toxic with the author. They’re discussing the idea of cultural poisoning and how the internet has affected culture over the last 2 decades.

One of the theories Ditum has proffered is that because of the toxic gossip blog culture of the early 00s, the idea of slut-shaming or shaming people for inherent characteristics like sexuality wasn’t seen as a morally negative issue 20 years ago but is now considered morally repugnant because of what happened to so many (mostly) female celebrities. Her thesis is that, in strong reaction to the internet LIbertarian free for all that was the early social web, people have changed their views on what is acceptable social behaviour and now there is a new high-status moral standard that claims to be highly empathic.

I’m thinking that this new moral standard is actually, in some ways, less moral than attitudes of the past on certain issues (like sexuality) and is instead more censorious about negative public discussion of these issues that were considered immoral behaviour in the past e.g. the push to make kink shaming seem bad.

I think, Ditum’s description of social mores changing radically because of the internet also works on this issue as well: in an academia that wants to follow the current high status social mores, particularly around sexuality, this has effectively benefitted groups like paedophiles who are now busy promoting the idea via research (and in groups online) that they are being unfairly stigmatised for an ‘inherent’ characteristic. And academics are also, via sympathetic framing of research subjects, following another new ‘moral’ development, that has arisen in recent years, i.e working towards shaming people who criticise what they see as an ‘unfairly stigmatised’ group.

OP posts:
theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 13/11/2024 15:17

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/11/2024 10:51

I’m listening to the recent episode of Gia Milinovich’s podcast (The Cluster F Theory) where she and her co-host are discussing Sarah Ditum’s book Toxic with the author. They’re discussing the idea of cultural poisoning and how the internet has affected culture over the last 2 decades.

One of the theories Ditum has proffered is that because of the toxic gossip blog culture of the early 00s, the idea of slut-shaming or shaming people for inherent characteristics like sexuality wasn’t seen as a morally negative issue 20 years ago but is now considered morally repugnant because of what happened to so many (mostly) female celebrities. Her thesis is that, in strong reaction to the internet LIbertarian free for all that was the early social web, people have changed their views on what is acceptable social behaviour and now there is a new high-status moral standard that claims to be highly empathic.

I’m thinking that this new moral standard is actually, in some ways, less moral than attitudes of the past on certain issues (like sexuality) and is instead more censorious about negative public discussion of these issues that were considered immoral behaviour in the past e.g. the push to make kink shaming seem bad.

I think, Ditum’s description of social mores changing radically because of the internet also works on this issue as well: in an academia that wants to follow the current high status social mores, particularly around sexuality, this has effectively benefitted groups like paedophiles who are now busy promoting the idea via research (and in groups online) that they are being unfairly stigmatised for an ‘inherent’ characteristic. And academics are also, via sympathetic framing of research subjects, following another new ‘moral’ development, that has arisen in recent years, i.e working towards shaming people who criticise what they see as an ‘unfairly stigmatised’ group.

Well, this is the kind of thing that makes academics and 'the left' look ridiculous.

But there is a real underlying problem of how to stop offending, if everyone treats them with disgust irrespective of whether their actual behaviour is impeccable.

They can't support each other, because of mission creep - they egg each other on to break the law/campaign to change the law.

I read about a project to provide released offenders with a support group of ordinary people who act as witnesses to the offender's life and keep him on the straight and narrow. This sounds promising, but needs enough people who are willing to hate the sin but love the sinner. Who are in short supply, I fear.

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/11/2024 17:10

Oh great, now there are TED Talks about how society isn’t being nice enough to paedophiles:

https://x.com/UltraDane/status/1856431394144301572

OP posts:
theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 13/11/2024 18:49

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/11/2024 17:10

Oh great, now there are TED Talks about how society isn’t being nice enough to paedophiles:

https://x.com/UltraDane/status/1856431394144301572

What are they hoping to achieve? It will never be normalised, because it is universally reviled.

Yes, we are all responsible for our actions, not our feelings. No, we can't kill or imprison them all, because we have to wait for them to commit a crime first.

But they would have to have a death wish to confide in anyone about it, and that's never not going to be true.

OuterSpaceCadet · 13/11/2024 19:09

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 13/11/2024 15:17

Well, this is the kind of thing that makes academics and 'the left' look ridiculous.

But there is a real underlying problem of how to stop offending, if everyone treats them with disgust irrespective of whether their actual behaviour is impeccable.

They can't support each other, because of mission creep - they egg each other on to break the law/campaign to change the law.

I read about a project to provide released offenders with a support group of ordinary people who act as witnesses to the offender's life and keep him on the straight and narrow. This sounds promising, but needs enough people who are willing to hate the sin but love the sinner. Who are in short supply, I fear.

Yes I posted about it earlier in the thread. Quakers have been doing it a while.

https://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/86/Circles-of-Support-and-Accountability-in-Britain

You're right about the mission creep/ egging on. It's almost accepted without thought that finding a like minded "community" of people going through the same thing is always good but there are absolutely times when that's not true. Pro ana sites come to mind too.

Circles of Support and Accountability in Britain

https://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/86/Circles-of-Support-and-Accountability-in-Britain