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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A Review of Academic Use of the Term "Minor Attracted Persons"

94 replies

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/11/2024 19:50

I came across this journal article thanks to Mike Salter (Professor of Criminology) posting the following tweet:

https://x.com/mike_salter/status/1854700225648378001

'Our review of academic use of the term "minor attracted people" is now published in Trauma Violence Abuse, highlighting the conceptual, political and empirical problems with characterising paedophiles as an oppressed sexual minority
^https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15248380241270028^'

I thought I'd post the tweet and link to the article in FWR as this a subject that is of interest and concern to many contributors here.

OP posts:
UtopiaPlanitia · 11/11/2024 22:12

Kendodd · 11/11/2024 21:50

I haven't read the article but to my mind paedophile and MAP could be two different things. In that someone might be a MAP without or before crossing a line and acting on it. I actually wish there was support for MAP and this could be accessed easily BEFORE any crime was committed, to constantly remind people this was wrong, dangerous and criminal, perhaps even to access medication if that was what was needed to prevent a line being crossed.
Redefining paedophile as a sexual orientation though, that's a hard NO.

Read the article and you will see that they are not two different things:

'As this article will detail, the history of academic engagement with pro-pedophile groups has been fraught with conflicts of interest (Goode, 2011). Such work has legitimized gross failures of child protection such as the deliberate placement of foster children in the homes of known pedophiles in Germany (Aviv, 2021), state support for pro-pedophile advocacy in England (Pilgrim, 2018), as well as sustained efforts to delimit child protection and criminal justice intervention in sexual abuse in the United States (Goode, 2011).

It is therefore important that close attention and critical scrutiny is paid to the transferral of terminology and argumentation from pro-pedophile groups into academic literature....

The review identified 30 articles published between 2015 and 2023, and findings are arranged under three overarching themes: (a) definitions of the term MAPs, (b) “MAPs” as an oppressed sexual minority, and (c) recommendations for the de-stigmatization of sexual interest in children. In our analysis, we point to areas of conceptual confusion in this literature, including the simultaneous denial that MAPs pose a risk to children while insisting that they are at risk of offending if they are stigmatized. We argue that such contradictions are unsustainable and have significant child protection implications. We also raise concern about the ethics of the comparisons between pedophilia and same-sex attraction that are evident throughout MAPS scholarship.

The findings of the review suggest that the terminology of MAPS remains linked to the agenda of social movements of pedophiles and calls for critical analysis of scholarly cooperation and engagement with pro-pedophile advocacy.'

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Bannedontherun · 11/11/2024 22:23

@Kendodd So how is one to identify such cases, like “please miss i want to shag a child” sort of thing.

Ahh yes so if we talk about MAP and stop shaming them and normalise their “illness”, “condition”, we can go on to resolve that as a society.

wait but, we allowed men to believe they were women and look where that got us.

Nope.

Expressions by males, sexual fetishes as a result of childhood experiences are not something we should accommodate in society.

Shame has a proper function in society to keep at bay shameful behaviours.

What is missing is support for children who have been sexually abused, or witnessed violence to veer them away from unwanted behaviour.

SquirrelSoShiny · 11/11/2024 22:30

These people sicken me. Once you've worked with adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse and seen the horrifying longterm impacts on their lives, you start to feel like no amount of stigmatising for paedophiles is enough. They don't even WANT to be cured they want to be able to offend without censure.

I'd write more but I'd only get deleted. Suffice to say I'd very much like to have the laptops of these 'academics' forensically examined.

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/11/2024 22:40

@Bannedontherun you make an excellent point about shame and the function it provides in society, which is backed up by the article:

"Many MAPs scholars evinced a strong opposition to any stigmatization of sexual interest in children, which was described as unfounded, harmful, and discriminatory. However, contrary to claims that “stigma” is the primary driver of child sexual abuse, institutions and environments that have “de-stigmatized” sexual interest in children have been places of rampant sexual abuse and exploitation (e.g., Clegg, 2021)....

...A nationally representative survey of almost 2000 Australian men found that one in six expressed some sexual interest in children and young people under the age of 18 (Salter et al., 2023), which suggests that sexual interest in minors is relatively common among men in the community. This research finds a strong overlap between sexual interest in children and other deviant sexual interests, including bestiality and sadism (Salter et al., 2023), which calls into question characterizations of pedophilia as a normative sexual orientation or identity....Hence, the widely held belief that people with a sexual interest in children are a risk to children is rational. Characterizations of this belief as discriminatory trivializes the threat to children posed by paedophilic sexual interest.

A recurrent implication within MAPs scholarship is that child sexual abuse perpetration by pedophiles is driven, to a significant degree, by the stigmatization of pedophilia. A proportion of child sex offenses were explained in the reviewed papers as the behavior of an oppressed sexual minority denied access to necessary mental health care and driven to abuse children by shame and stigma... However, the framing of child sex offenses as the “acting out” of oppressed pedophiles is not only an extraordinarily sympathetic account of sexual violence against children, but it is a poor fit with the forensic record, which has documented the prevalence of premeditated, manipulative grooming and other deliberative patterns of behavior with a systematic focus on overcoming barriers to abuse and enforcing obedience and silence in children (e.g., Winters & Jeglic, 2017).

... For example, although domestic violence is common, it is a stigmatized behavior. Accordingly, men who experience the impulse to victimize an intimate partner typically keep these feelings secret, and experience significant shame (Gadd, 2002). While efforts to prevent violence against women include efforts to engage early with such men, domestic violence prevention does not promote the “destigmatization” of the impulse to physical or sexual violence. To the contrary, public health and social marketing campaigns have sought to reinforce social norms against the acceptability of domestic violence (Jewkes et al., 2015).

OP posts:
Bannedontherun · 11/11/2024 22:43

@SquirrelSoShiny totally agree

Igmum · 12/11/2024 07:04

The Paedophile Information Exchange reborn. They are good at tagging themselves on to popular causes. And some trendy people are so open minded their brains have fallen out of their heads.

SinnerBoy · 12/11/2024 07:42

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 20:13

Exactly! There should never be any removing of stigma. Paedophiles should be amongst the most reviled people in society.

That's something every rational person understands. They should be reviled, shunned and monitored, if they're not in prison. They're the very worst of society and deserve all the scorn they get.

MelodyMalone · 12/11/2024 08:28

If there's anything that says "evil" to me, it's people who use the innocent for their own purposes and either don't care about or enjoy the harm they cause.

If a person has those "MAP" (shudder) feelings (perhaps due to their own childhood experiences) and fights against them, because they know it's wrong, I can have sympathy for that and wish them
well in their struggle.

But these men - and there are many - who actively seek out opportunities to hurt children, and try to defend and normalise it, they are the worst of the worst.

idnhxun · 12/11/2024 09:00

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 11/11/2024 20:51

Academics again, I'm being to think Chairman Mao had the right idea.

As an ex-academic, I'm starting to understand this sentiment.

PerkingFaintly · 12/11/2024 09:18

Thanks for posting this article, OP, and for the excerpts from it. Very important stuff.

ArabellaScott · 12/11/2024 09:33

The implication they are attempting is that being attracted to children is an 'orientation' that can't be controlled.

It's not. It's a paraphilia. It's predicated on the impossibility of consent. Being attracted to a subject because the subject can't consent is not an orientation any more than being a rapist is an orientation.

Paraphilias tend to cluster, and what most of them share is that element of non consent.

They target children because children are vulnerable, because they are intent on rape and coercion. It's the coercion and abuse that attracts a paedophile, not the child itself.

Bannedontherun · 12/11/2024 09:54

@ArabellaScott I think that is a correct analysis.

DeanElderberry · 12/11/2024 11:45

PIE didn't die.

PIE kept working away in the background for more than half a century.

But within the last week someone in a thread on this board claimed they'd never heard of it.

OuterSpaceCadet · 12/11/2024 12:56

ArabellaScott · 12/11/2024 09:33

The implication they are attempting is that being attracted to children is an 'orientation' that can't be controlled.

It's not. It's a paraphilia. It's predicated on the impossibility of consent. Being attracted to a subject because the subject can't consent is not an orientation any more than being a rapist is an orientation.

Paraphilias tend to cluster, and what most of them share is that element of non consent.

They target children because children are vulnerable, because they are intent on rape and coercion. It's the coercion and abuse that attracts a paedophile, not the child itself.

Thanks for this comment. You've put into words what my brain was trying to think!

I wonder if one of the reasons it persists is that our society and culture is still structured around power imbalances. Paedophilia is just another one, albeit extreme.

I disagree that sexual abuse is necessarily the cause (there'd be so many more female paedophiles). I wonder if it's extreme humiliation in childhood coupled with a sense of entitlement bestowed by a patriarchal society leading to a desperate want for power over a defenceless other.

duc748 · 12/11/2024 13:00

DeanElderberry · 12/11/2024 11:45

PIE didn't die.

PIE kept working away in the background for more than half a century.

But within the last week someone in a thread on this board claimed they'd never heard of it.

Exactly, It's more PIE. Some of us remember all too all those anguished letters to the Guardian. Mostly from academics.

OuterSpaceCadet · 12/11/2024 13:12

https://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/86/Circles-of-Support-and-Accountability-in-Britain

This method claims some success (although it's obviously only post conviction). I admire those who feel able to run these groups. Personally, I could countenance the thought of leaving paedophiles in jail for life.

This is the opposite of a "MAP" finding his "MAP" community and destigmatising paedophilia. Importantly there is one paedophile per group and the other members of the group condemn the crimes, whilst recognising the humanity of the paedophile.

This is the kind of old school level headed, practical compassion I associated with the Quakers, but at it's heart you need to be able to know "paedophilia is wrong" for it to work. I wonder what their post modern young gender activists think of hard boundaries such as that.

Circles of Support and Accountability in Britain

https://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/86/Circles-of-Support-and-Accountability-in-Britain

NitroNine · 12/11/2024 14:04

Research indicates that most paedophiles haven’t been abused - only 4% of offenders in this study had a confirmed history of abuse; but they’ll absolutely lie about having been abused. They’re a population that are hard to study - you can only work with ones who’ve been caught; & researchers are prone to asking about CSA & accepting the answer they expect. It is also possible some have a history that can’t be confirmed because they never disclosed. However, being sexually abused doesn’t cause an individual to abuse others - as PPs have noted, if it did, there would be vastly more female offenders.

Hopefully that article will start a - clearly much-needed - conversation 🫤

UtopiaPlanitia · 12/11/2024 15:35

Thanks everybody for your excellent points on this thread.

Personally, I’m so glad to see that a Professor of Criminology has undertaken this analysis of the current academic publishing on the issue and has shown that, basically, the academics involved in the subject area are being drawn towards sympathetic analyses by tales of woe and virtue from paedophiles.

We need academics with some bloody common sense who can take this issue, and the risk to children, seriously so I desperately hope there will be more research carried out to refute the current ‘MAPs shouldn’t be stigmatised’ narrative that is being carefully crafted by groups of paedophiles online and then disseminated through lobby groups like Prostasia as well as via academic studies.

I think the sexual & other social/political liberation movements went too far in the 70s in that they advocated for and benefitted groups like PIE. Just as in the 00s, where the Kink/BDSM + ID politics movements have gone too far and allowed paedophiles to claim oppression and to claim they have a natural sexual orientation towards children. It is in fact possible for well-intentioned social movements to be too inclusive if they are providing cover for paedophiles and other abusers.

Campaigners and academics began with good intentions but were naive to the fact that that they created an option for those with bad intentions to take advantage of the veneer of virtue/respectability to re-brand their paraphilias.

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 12/11/2024 16:29

As I've said before, I'm wary of the word paraphilia because I know John Money coined it to replace the pejorative 'perversion'.

Not everything is equally worthy of acceptance, sometimes sexual self-control, even self-repression, is a good thing.

Maaate · 12/11/2024 18:22

Any paedophile who genuinely understands that their desires are wrong won't be wanting them to be destigmatised or accepted.

Bannedontherun · 12/11/2024 19:05

@DeanElderberry I agree with your sentiment but i think paraphilia as a term is helpful because it includes all manner of fetishisms, and to my knowledge is not considered a nicety.

Fgfgfg · 12/11/2024 19:11

Kendodd · 11/11/2024 21:50

I haven't read the article but to my mind paedophile and MAP could be two different things. In that someone might be a MAP without or before crossing a line and acting on it. I actually wish there was support for MAP and this could be accessed easily BEFORE any crime was committed, to constantly remind people this was wrong, dangerous and criminal, perhaps even to access medication if that was what was needed to prevent a line being crossed.
Redefining paedophile as a sexual orientation though, that's a hard NO.

This charity operates a helpline for a range of issues including people concerned about their thoughts towards children.
https://www.stopitnow.org.uk/helpline/

Contact the Stop It Now! child sexual abuse helpline - Stop It Now

Get help and support to stop child sexual abuse. Call 0808 1000 900 to speak to an advisor or send us an anonymous message.

https://www.stopitnow.org.uk/helpline

ArabellaScott · 12/11/2024 19:14

Paraphilias often coexist with personality disorders.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38740864/

Fgfgfg · 12/11/2024 19:19

Wouldn't let me edit but the charity mentioned in my previous post offer an online course to help people manage their thoughts and behaviours. WARNING: some of the topics could be distressing.
https://www.stopitnow.org.uk/concerned-about-your-own-thoughts-or-behaviour/help-with-inappropriate-thoughts-or-behaviour/self-help/understanding-the-behaviour/

DrBlackbird · 12/11/2024 23:08

Interesting article and hopefully read and taken into account by that forensic psychologist throwing all forms of domestic violence into the same bin in order to say men and women are as bad as each other. Can’t remember what his name was but he also had published a paper on ‘map’…