Acceptance and tolerance still isn't enough

[JumpingPumpkin]

tldr: the trans and non-binary folk want complete control of language, acceptance isn't enough

Name changed just in case anyone recognises this situation.

I've just come back from a lovely music and dance weekend event run entirely by volunteers. It's pretty small and has a regular group attending but anyone can buy a ticket.

It's one of the most welcoming environments possible to imagine. In terms of "dress how you like" there's no judgment at all, wear a sparkly top and flowing skirt, or shorts and t-shirt etc etc whether male or female it's all fine.

In terms of trans, there were two men with breasts, one young woman with a double mastectomy and several others who I guess would call themselves non-binary. I didn't discuss any of these identities as it's not relevant - the focus is on the activities.

All the dancing is called using gender neutral terms, so leader/follower, 1s/2s, left/right, larks/ravens etc. Man and woman isn't used. And everyone dances with everyone else, so it's completely normal to have two women dancing together or two men, and a wide range of ages, all happily mixing.

Yet still, at the end when the "suggestions for next year" was asked, it was pointed out that "ladies and gentlemen" has been said and this wasn't inclusive enough of the non-binary folk.

I just feel so sorry for these young people. That's probably just about the most welcoming and accepting all-ages public event that they'll go to but it's still not enough.

I'm wondering why it's so compelling. Right now I'm thinking that it's because there's so much wrong in the world that feels impossible to change that it fulfils a need to affect society in some way. It's a silly thing that they can have success with.

Much like I find it impossible to campaign against porn and prostitution as it quickly gets too distressing (respect those who do) and feels intractable but I can easily argue for clarity with words to defend the most basic women's right of being able to name ourselves.

I find a dose of the Socratic method useful.

A literal version of “Can you hear yourself?” - most effect is asking the ones who have cheer-leaded someone to a double mastectomy how encouraging amputation counts as an act of friendship.

‘ladies and gentlemen has been said…..’

Tell them to have a look at Valencia and see what trouble looks like.

Why is it so compelling? Because it makes certain sorts of people who crave feeling powerful and important, feel powerful and important. All that’s wrong in the world is by the by, we could be living in a veritable utopia and there’s still be sad little types trying to centre themselves in everything and make everyone else do what they want. They are not nice people.

I go to a dance classes. I had not twigged that 'leader and follower' is gender neutral as all the leaders bar one are male, and all the followers bar none are women. The terminology works for dancing, I think, since it's clear as to what you are doing. Entitled people asking for total gender neutrality should try having real problems such as in Ukraine, Israel, Sudan...

It's just asserting power. It is compelling because people roll over. I agree with the comments above. I'd be inclined to eye roll and walk away.

As part of their gender-neutral clampdown, town hall staff must begin letters with Dear colleagues, Dear partners or Dear council taxpayer.

The council said: ‘This guide has been produced to help Hackney Council staff ensure that wherever possible, language is used that creates a welcoming environment and fosters a sense of belonging, pursuant o our core value of being inclusive.’

‘Terms such as partner are more endearing than husband or wife.

https://metro.co.uk/2024/11/01/london-council-bans-staff-starting-letters-sir-madam-21911904/

Oh it's worse than that. I've seen TRAs complain that they know even people using the right pronouns and doing everything as they've been ordered outwardly don't really believe they are the "gender" (sex) they've claimed to be.

The ironic thing is that I spoke to one middle aged woman who had felt nervous about attending, I felt a little that way myself before going, and another older woman said "tweet tweet" in an annoyed fashion when called a raven.

You're never going to please everyone, but I wonder if the language used will change next year. And I wonder if the young non-binaries have empathy for us older folk.

Of course! Another reason not to lie, it won't be appreciated by those demanding it.

On the Hackney Council decision, I am very puzzled by the statement 'terms such as partner are more endearing than husband or wife'.

I'm not at all sure Hackney council can know what endearing means. I don't think any council should be using 'endearing' terms to residents, nor lecturing them on how to describe their nearest & dearest, if that's what it's about.

Agree! That's why I took that line out of their press release.

I can see why using partner is maybe easier because not every couple goes through a marriage ceremony, but to claim it is more endearing?

And not the roll of a local council to venture into a comment like that, while saying using a word that covers both a marriage and a long term relationship could, of all of them seem like useful advice. And of course same sex couples.

I wish councils would just go back to concentrating on providing good services.

None of them seem to think this is a priority!

The endearing bit just sounds confused. I would definitely prefer Dear sir/madam to Dear council tax payer.

Endearing in that context doesn't make sense, I think they've confused it for a totally different word.

I think maybe you are right OP that it is largely about control. I'm not sure that's because the world is so much worse than it has been before. But I do think our society seems almost designed to produce young people who are control freaks.

I was talking to a group of young adults the other day - all inculcated with the bollox (I am trying to riff on Never Mind the Bollox so please excuse the vulgarity 😀).

I told them that self id does not work. Sharp intakes of breath all round as they were getting ready to "Karen" me out of the building. I told them, calmy and respectfully, that I had tried to change ID, had done everything by the book, but menopause kept coming, those hot flushes refused to leave etc. Much laughter ensued.

I hope a tiny grain of critial thinking sand went in.

Certain departments in uni, that spoon feed this should be shut down...

Right now I'm thinking that it's because there's so much wrong in the world that feels impossible to change that it fulfils a need to affect society in some way. It's a silly thing that they can have success with.

I think you're right about that. I also think it's about insecurity. No amount of validation is ever going to be enough because they cannot self-validate. They externalize because they are unsure. So they seek reassurance via controlling the speech of others. Again, though, it's never going to be enough because internally, they are not really secure in who they are and in the legitimacy of their ideology.

So, how do they address non council tax payers?

"I also think it's about insecurity. No amount of validation is ever going to be enough because they cannot self-validate. "

That's a really interesting point. I was once told that bullying ultimately comes from insecurity, it's a similar thing in a different form.

Dear non-tax payer

Can you please pay your bill? If you do we'll update you to tax payer.

No, they won't have empathy. They've been trained to believe they're more vulnerable, oppressed and maltreated than anyone else, and we're the enemy.

You're right, acceptance isn't enough. It never was, it was never about "we just want to pee". It's about dominance and control. You only have to look at the violent rage and fury when someone doesn't do as they demand. This is no downtrodden minority!

I'm sure that some of the young believers can see the enormous flaws and untruths in this ideology. They have to be very vocal in their support to avoid social ostracism - the worst possible fate at their age - and to convince themselves that they're not wrong.

I'm sure that some of the young believers can see the enormous flaws and untruths in this ideology. They have to be very vocal in their support to avoid social ostracism - the worst possible fate at their age - and to convince themselves that they're not wrong.

I dont think this is about young people. There have been many different youth "cults" as generations go by.

This is about authorities who have decided, unlike in previous generations, decided to impose this cult on everyone.

That is the real issue.

If they weren't doing that, this would just be another youth cult that as the youths got older just didn't bother with it anymore.

There will always to a few who will cling on, a bit like in the past seeing someone who was so obviously still clinging to some sort of hippie life style.

The only power young people have is the power that older generation give them.

No doubt you are right about that.

State that you identify as a lady and you insist on inclusion.

Perhaps you could suggest ‘Council Tax Payers and Non Council Tax Payers’ as an inclusive gender neutral alternative to ‘ladies and gentlemen?’

😆