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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

M&S calls young girls 'things'

147 replies

lcakethereforeIam · 03/11/2024 18:20

This isn't just any misogyny, this is...

https://archive.ph/6XLUT

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/11/03/ms-trans-row-advertising-girls-first-bras-for-young-things/

Eta link

OP posts:
LikeWhoUsesTypewritersAnyway · 03/11/2024 19:29

lcakethereforeIam · 03/11/2024 18:20

I hate the erasure of womens identity, with things like 'people with uteruses,' and 'people who menstruate' and actresses being called ACTORS, and the Green Party bollocks of men and non-men !!! But I am REALLY not offended by this, and think the reaction from that woman on Twitter (Bev Turner) was ridiculously over the top.

Calling girls 'young things' is not dehumanising and it's bloody ridiculous and insulting to people across the world who ARE dehumanised every day, to say what M & S said is dehumanising. Talk about overdramatic. Good Grief! Can people not say ANYthing now, lest it offends? 🙄

stanleypops66 · 03/11/2024 19:32

What a horrible message for young girls coming into puberty. These bras are for 'fearless' (what if they're shitting themselves) 'things' (no better than an object).

We all know why the message was what it was - to be 'inclusive' of trans girls at the exclusion of biological girls (who have no choice in going through puberty unless they also claim to be trans).

Calypso321 · 03/11/2024 19:34

Some of you a seriously overthinking this. Christ, it must be exhausting being so offended by such non-issues.

MarieDeGournay · 03/11/2024 19:36

Just popping to say I'm sure everybody's mind will immediately go back to the 1920s, Evelyn Waugh, the Mitford gels, the jazz age, and will therefore not be in the slightest bit offended at a retailer referring to girls as 'things'.

Pip pip!

Catiette · 03/11/2024 19:36

CrabSignalArmy · 03/11/2024 19:11

I think you're wanting it both ways.

If a man doesn't become a woman by putting on a dress etc (I agree) then dresses and bras are not clothes for women and girls, they are clothes for anyone who wants them.

So no I don't want bra adverts that say that bras are fir girls. It's not M&S's job to police who buys their clothes. Anyone who wants to buy them can do so. Of any sex or gender. Let clothes be clothes.

And "thing" isn't dehumanising. "Bright Young Things" is a well known phrase describing the cohort of youth about to burst forth into adulthood any minute now.

This seems very confused. How about...

To make it clear that a man doesn't become a woman by putting on a dress etc (I agree) then dresses and bras need to be marketed as clothes for women and girls, to reinforce they are not clothes for anyone who wants them.

So I do want bra adverts that are clear, whether explicitly or implicitly, that children's bras are for girls. It's M&S's job to respect customers' needs, not to police who a woman or girl can be. Anyone who wants to buy anything can do so. Of any sex or gender. But not at the expense of girls' names and needs. Let girls be girls.

I didn't actually see much issue with the slogan myself, but I also understand those who do. M&S's apologetic response does imply an ulterior motive to de-sex bras & erase girls' physical reality.

I see women's anger at this as not dissimilar to an increased wariness about the sex of people using female toilets. Previously, "fearless young things" would have been a barely-acknowledged indication of progress - a reminder that there's less need than ever before to focus on sex differences one way or the other, as they're understood, respected, & largely irrelevant. And previously, a 6-foot woman with a crew cut in the loo would have been a wholly unnoticed indication of progress, a reminder, if you even noticed her, that there's less tendency than ever before to focus on gendered appearance one way or the other: it's understood, respected, & largely irrelevant.*

This was progress indeed. But now? Women have been hurt, and an injury makes you flinch at things you wouldn't have before. It's a pre-emptive protective mechanism - it's become so much harder to see things like this as innocent in a society that's constantly rubbing salt into our metaphorical wounds.

*This is emphatically not to add fuel to the popular trope that GNC women are being kicked out of toilets. Within half a second, it's clear who's who. But even that half-second of extra caution simply wasn't on our radar just 10 years ago. Trans activists caused it, just as clearly as trans activists are now those most likely to highlight and condemn it.

The ironies of all this are infuriating sometimes.

Sortumn · 03/11/2024 19:46

whoopdeedoo · 03/11/2024 19:24

Whichever pp asked the question about Pretty Little Thing - yes IMO it’s a terrible brand name and I do have a problem with its objectifying connotations.

Yes, I assumed it meant the clothing in this case rather than the woman wearing them. However, it's still not marketing that appeals to me and I've never looked beyond the brand name to the clothing.
I prefer comfy, well fitting things.

Sortumn · 03/11/2024 19:50

CrabSignalArmy · 03/11/2024 19:11

I think you're wanting it both ways.

If a man doesn't become a woman by putting on a dress etc (I agree) then dresses and bras are not clothes for women and girls, they are clothes for anyone who wants them.

So no I don't want bra adverts that say that bras are fir girls. It's not M&S's job to police who buys their clothes. Anyone who wants to buy them can do so. Of any sex or gender. Let clothes be clothes.

And "thing" isn't dehumanising. "Bright Young Things" is a well known phrase describing the cohort of youth about to burst forth into adulthood any minute now.

Why would a man need a bra? I think even the largest of moobs would not require one and why would someone who did not require one want to truss themselves up in one?

MumblesParty · 03/11/2024 19:51

10 years ago I probably wouldn’t have thought anything of it. Now, however, in this time of TRAs, it looks like a deliberate attempt at not using the word “girl”. And calling them “fearless” suggests there may be issues to overcome, beyond the normal pubertal development that all girls are aware of. I think this has definitely been aimed at being inclusive and trans-friendly.

catmothertes1 · 03/11/2024 19:53

Snowypeaks · 03/11/2024 18:34

I don't get this at all.
Isn't "bright young things" a well known phrase? That's how I would have read it.

Me too.

Marblesbackagain · 03/11/2024 19:54

Eh nope you are literally reading a version of a well used phrase 🤦‍♀️

Catiette · 03/11/2024 19:54

I also acknowledge there are some circumstances in which a transitioning male child may need a bra, but these are so few and far between, I don't believe girls should be sacrificed on this altar, and I also don't believe M&S should be interfering in any way in the complex and troubling issue of gender dysphoric children - least of all in the name of making money!

Not that I'm 100% that's what's happening here anyway.

But whatever - it's another small but illuminating example of the impact that destabilising language can have on shared understanding and cohesion.

OtherS · 03/11/2024 19:58

Don't see any issue, other than it's a weird way to advertise bras - why would anyone need to be fearless to put on a bra? Don't know why they'd be trying to tell young girls that starting to wear a bra is scary.

CrabSignalArmy · 03/11/2024 20:01

Sortumn · 03/11/2024 19:50

Why would a man need a bra? I think even the largest of moobs would not require one and why would someone who did not require one want to truss themselves up in one?

None of your business. If a man wants a bra he can have one. It's a free country. I would rather live in a world where it's generally accepted that anyone can buy and wear any item of clothing, as long as nothing indecent is revealed in public, than a world where some items are policed to only be worn my those who are approved to wear them.

CocoapuffPuff · 03/11/2024 20:03

Oganesson118 · 03/11/2024 18:59

Oh stop it. It's a play on the phrase bright, young things. It's not dehumanising. Presumably you have an issue with the online retailer Pretty Little Thing too?

Pretty Little Thing, I've always thought, refers to the products the company sells, not their customers. That's slightly different from the The M&S ad which refers to customers.
It's certainly clumsy wording. Fearless young things. Doesn't run off the tongue nicely.
I'm slightly curious as to why "fearless". Fearless and bras. Its an odd juxtaposition. I'm feeling fearless today, I must wear me bra. Maybe they're channeling their inner boudicca?

Snorlaxo · 03/11/2024 20:04

I assumed that PLT sold pretty little things (items ) rather than being aimed at pretty little things (women)

It is strange that they used things when the website is divided into girls/boys etc If they were aiming bras at boys with moobs too then that’s way too revolutionary from a brand that is considering conservative and safe. If this is a gender thing then I’d expect them to change their website so underwear is all unisex but I bet they won’t.

RedHelenB · 03/11/2024 20:09

CrabSignalArmy · 03/11/2024 19:11

I think you're wanting it both ways.

If a man doesn't become a woman by putting on a dress etc (I agree) then dresses and bras are not clothes for women and girls, they are clothes for anyone who wants them.

So no I don't want bra adverts that say that bras are fir girls. It's not M&S's job to police who buys their clothes. Anyone who wants to buy them can do so. Of any sex or gender. Let clothes be clothes.

And "thing" isn't dehumanising. "Bright Young Things" is a well known phrase describing the cohort of youth about to burst forth into adulthood any minute now.

This.

terryleather · 03/11/2024 20:10

Snowypeaks · 03/11/2024 18:34

I don't get this at all.
Isn't "bright young things" a well known phrase? That's how I would have read it.

That's how I'd read it too.

Marblesbackagain · 03/11/2024 20:11

For those questioning the word fearless, I think it's your age showing.

According to the young cool individuals around me it means cool not that it's something scary, accompanied by amazing eye roll. Seemingly it literally has meant that for years, but oldies always kill the buzz by not understanding anything, cue sigh.

BobbyBiscuits · 03/11/2024 20:12

Why does someone need to be 'fearless' to wear a bra? Is it because they have a penis? Is it because they are repulsed by their growing breasts...Or should I say 'chest'?
And calling a human being a 'thing' is bizarre and misogynistic.
Why not just say something like-
'First bras to suit every style. Available in Sizes x-y. Please ask an assistant if you would like a bra fitting'
I'm glad they apologised.

Snorlaxo · 03/11/2024 20:16

So shy introverted girls don’t need bras? Or do they magically become fearless when they wear an M&S bra?

My guess is that the ad will be seen by adult parents and not the girls unless they are instore with said parent eg for uniform since M&S isn’t a brand worn by young people out of school.

Marblesbackagain · 03/11/2024 20:18

BobbyBiscuits · 03/11/2024 20:12

Why does someone need to be 'fearless' to wear a bra? Is it because they have a penis? Is it because they are repulsed by their growing breasts...Or should I say 'chest'?
And calling a human being a 'thing' is bizarre and misogynistic.
Why not just say something like-
'First bras to suit every style. Available in Sizes x-y. Please ask an assistant if you would like a bra fitting'
I'm glad they apologised.

You really understand marketing and slogans don't you 🤦‍♀️

Gcfemale · 03/11/2024 20:19

@Marblesbackagain Never heard that, have heard of fierce and I have teens in the demographic aimed at

BobbyBiscuits · 03/11/2024 20:23

@Marblesbackagain I don't understand that marketing slogan at all. Unless it's trying to market towards trans kids?

Autumnalsun · 03/11/2024 20:24

There is an entire time a clothing company called Pretty Little Thing and so I’m not sure this is as bad as you think it is.

It depends what their reasoning is behind it and perhaps it was purely not to cause offence by saying girl when a young woman may wear the same size.

I just hope they did it to be ‘cool’ or to not offend girls/women and not for any other reason!

DrizzleMySwizzle · 03/11/2024 20:25

Marblesbackagain · 03/11/2024 20:18

You really understand marketing and slogans don't you 🤦‍♀️

😂

'Why does KFC call their chicken 'finger lickin' good'? That's just encouraging unsanitary table manners. They should call it 'nice chicken'. Tsk tsk'.