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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kemi elected leader of the Tory party

246 replies

cariadlet · 02/11/2024 11:13

Let's hope she really holds Labour to account about women's rights and the dangers of gender ideology.

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Calliecarpa · 03/11/2024 08:38

In Birmingham Yardley, Jess Phillips had a majority of over 16,500 in 2017 and over 10,500 in 2019, but less than 700 in this year's GE. That's a drop of almost 96%, and she's a Labour MP. I'm not quite sure what the point about Badenoch's majority is meant to be. I have no doubt plenty of her constituents dislike her, and her majority was massively slashed, but she still won her seat reasonably comfortably by more than 2500 votes. Saying that she 'barely clung on' to it is simply not true.

illinivich · 03/11/2024 08:41

As I said on a similar thread today, she is VERY disliked in her own constituency and has been for some time.

She recieved more votes than Starmer did.

sunflowersngunpowdr · 03/11/2024 08:44

FreedomDogs · 02/11/2024 13:45

Think this just demonstrates how far out of step Tory membership is with the rest of the country. Last election proved definitively anti-trans posturing isn't a vote winner. She won't provide "robust opposition" she'll just sound nasty and batshit, on all topics. She'll say something indefensible and be out long before the next election. The winner of this vote was only ever going to be a placeholder.

Edited

Sorry but you are the one out of touch. Labour won because the vote in the right was split. It was not a landslide for the left they just got lucky that the Tory party imploded and they were there to win by default. I think the majority of the country do not want to see transgender ideology go any further and would actually like to see it reversed and definitely kept out of schools and away from children. I can't imagine any reasonable person wanting men in women's prisons or women's sports.

BonfireLady · 03/11/2024 09:10

I can't imagine any reasonable person wanting men in women's prisons or women's sports.

Agreed, although sadly there are some reasonable people who haven't necessarily thought it through. So the caveat would be "after really thinking about it", which many people actively avoid, because it can feel uncomfortable to do so. I personally found it an incredibly uncomfortable journey, because I wanted to support people who felt "trapped in the wrong body" but not at the expense of everyone else. I've now realised that I still can show this support, just in different ways e.g. supporting the implementation of the Cass Report and looking forward to the outcome of the adult care review. This means I'm not inadvertently including autogynophiles in my support.

I think the majority of the country do not want to see transgender ideology go any further and would actually like to see it reversed and definitely kept out of schools and away from children

The same caveat applies. Sport is probably the easiest one to think about, as it's obvious how unfair it is once you realise that the permanent effects and benefits (strength, speed etc) of male puberty can't be reversed, even with testosterone suppression. Thinking about the overreach in gender identity accepted as fact being reversed and/or it not being taught as fact in schools takes a lot more effort. The temptation to look away and think "it's such a small, marginalisd population, it's none of my business" is likely even greater. However, arguably it's everyone's business when there's a medical scandal on this scale. Hopefully enough people are waking up to this, so that what you describe above becomes reality. Unfortunately we're still seeing it being pushed heavily as fact in the media e.g. news reporting, TV shows like Hollyoaks, Heartstopper, Dr Who and Doctors. Until that stops, we'll still get lots of people believing that the kindest thing to do is to accept that it's important to validate someone's gender identity.

WarriorN · 03/11/2024 09:11

I'm really pleased for her; she's been amazing in debates around gender identity and also the unchallenged teaching of critical race theory in education, (which I think is like holding a petrol soaked rag to a flame.)

I'm also just so pleased we have another female party leader. (I do not agree with many of her other policies. The send and maternity stuff has been ridiculous.)

Dh said something about tactical voting early on went very badly wrong and it was James Cleverly that the majority wanted in. But they messed up. (First I'd heard.) I suspect he will succeed Kemi in the future.

Have to say my big concern is that as she's seen as "more right wing," her holding Labour to account on gender stuff will be more dismissed as right wing by many.

EasternStandard · 03/11/2024 09:14

WarriorN · 03/11/2024 09:11

I'm really pleased for her; she's been amazing in debates around gender identity and also the unchallenged teaching of critical race theory in education, (which I think is like holding a petrol soaked rag to a flame.)

I'm also just so pleased we have another female party leader. (I do not agree with many of her other policies. The send and maternity stuff has been ridiculous.)

Dh said something about tactical voting early on went very badly wrong and it was James Cleverly that the majority wanted in. But they messed up. (First I'd heard.) I suspect he will succeed Kemi in the future.

Have to say my big concern is that as she's seen as "more right wing," her holding Labour to account on gender stuff will be more dismissed as right wing by many.

I don't get this theory. If MPs wanted Cleverly not Kemi it would have been easy to vote for the former not the latter and just knock her out.

It seems an odd thing to have got legs, I think brought up by people threatened by Kemi (not you)

CurlewKate · 03/11/2024 09:17

@WarriorN "Dh said something about tactical voting early on went very badly wrong and it was James Cleverly that the majority wanted in"

You're so lucky to have a dh to explain the tricky bits to you.....

BonfireLady · 03/11/2024 09:18

Have to say my big concern is that as she's seen as "more right wing," her holding Labour to account on gender stuff will be more dismissed as right wing by many.

Agreed. Hopefully she'll choose her shadow cabinet carefully to mitigate this. If James Cleverly had been thinking about the country and the party (ahead of himself) he'd had put himself in the ring as on this. He's a favourite amongst non-Tory voters. Hopefully Kemi can find some less selfish people who can achieve a similar balance as he could have brought.

WarriorN · 03/11/2024 09:23

@CurlewKate can't work out if that's snide or not; I'm not following much politics at the moment due to work load.

It doesn't make sense to me personally. And I hadn't heard it elsewhere. Dh follows politics more closely than I do, apart from gender stuff and education.

TofuTart · 03/11/2024 09:30

ilovesooty · 03/11/2024 08:28

I don't live in her constituency and she's the leader of the opposition, not in government. I have no time for her and her politics, and she in no way represents me.

Or me.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:36

CurlewKate · 02/11/2024 19:22

So what job will she give Jenrick? Home Secretary?

Hopefully she'll offer him something he doesn't want. Certainly not Home Secretary.

WarriorN · 03/11/2024 09:41

Slightly off topic; the Labour government's plans for send is piecemeal, a drop in the ocean and is a sticking plaster. The only decent change they've made is how Ofsted inspect provision in this area.

I haven't heard any party offer up a decent way to tackle the send situation. But it's going to be a huge problem for education and the care system in the future. Governments need to future proof effectively.

What's happening - that NO ONE is talking about, is that the private send school sector is booming and local authorities are having to pay 70-80k+ per child per year for places. As local send schools are full.

Labour seem to think it's easy to set up small additionally resourced provisions in mainstream; it really isn't.

Mainstream schools don't want to take children with SEMH / 'challenging behaviour.' which many autistic/ adhd or FASD / NAS children have.

Agree with a PP that this is myopic. And good effective staff training is sparse. And there's a lot of bad trainers and 'alternative provisions' jumping on the bandwagon making a lot of money out of these vulnerable children. (Exactly like the gender industry.)

ilovesooty · 03/11/2024 09:42

BonfireLady · 03/11/2024 09:18

Have to say my big concern is that as she's seen as "more right wing," her holding Labour to account on gender stuff will be more dismissed as right wing by many.

Agreed. Hopefully she'll choose her shadow cabinet carefully to mitigate this. If James Cleverly had been thinking about the country and the party (ahead of himself) he'd had put himself in the ring as on this. He's a favourite amongst non-Tory voters. Hopefully Kemi can find some less selfish people who can achieve a similar balance as he could have brought.

She hasn't got many MPs to choose from. I think Cleverly has made a wise decision.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:43

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 02/11/2024 20:10

No, I think you're trying to rewrite history. And so is she.

If Kemi was talking about business regulation, and her comments were not at all relevant to maternity pay, why do you think she made the following comment in the same conversation:

"We need to have more personal responsibility - there was a time when there wasn’t any maternity pay and people were having more babies."

Why would she hark back to a time when there was no maternity pay if she wasn't talking about maternity pay.

Just because she knows what a woman is, doesn't mean she gives a shit about women's rights.

That was a part of her explanatioin of how it might be better if in future people took out insurances for things like health, maternity pay, pensions. At present NI contributions are supposed to fund these benefits, though NI ends up being just another form of general taxation with no guarantees.

The new Labour government has already floated the idea that in future even the basic state pension itself may not be safe, or may have to be means tested - even though people may have been paying NI contributions their whole life.

In order to take a hold/get more control of the situation ( take personal responsibility) people could be encouraged to take out maternity cover protection in the way that many are already paying into private pension schemes and now into health insurance schemes.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:47

TempestTost · 02/11/2024 21:02

I think what she's said on this topic is very preliminary, which makes it very difficult to answer the public's questions.

In general, I tend to think she's right with a lot of the problems she identifies. It's a problem that the way educational provision is set up creates a hierarchy of needs. A myopic focus on mainstream integration seems to be hugely problematic in conjunction with that. And maybe more to the point, it doesn't seem to be helping the children, any of them.

Reasonably though the public wants to know what her answers are.

And here is the problem - she doesn't, couldn't, and shouldn't be expected to have the answers to complex questions like that on her own. What's clear is that there needs to be another very clear headed, pragmatic look at how education works for all children. And that's something that will have to be done by a group of people with some expertise, who are not hemmed in by ideological policy assumptions.

There is no way to get to that until people are willing to recognize that there is a need to rethink. And unfortunately a lot of organizations will be too scared to agree to that.

But it's nice to see that someone is at least trying to think about how policy operates at a deeper level, rather than just the optics.

I think she is often misjudged because she tends to be a big ideas person, a systemic thinker.......and whilst she expounds on the bigger picture she has yet to work out the details of implementation and/or transformation.

Snowypeaks · 03/11/2024 09:51

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:36

Hopefully she'll offer him something he doesn't want. Certainly not Home Secretary.

Edited

He's ruled himself out of a job in her Shadow Cabinet and not ruled himself out as a future leadership candidate....

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:53

BonfireLady · 03/11/2024 08:02

Well, that didn't take long..... the BBC is helpfully stepping in with some succession planning (before the new leader has even started 🤦‍♀️):

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm20dv560j2o

Aside from his gaff on violence against women and a few other daft comments in the past, Cleverly did seem like a reasonable candidate. Also, it's very possible that Kemi will do the hard work now and then get replaced after in-fighting before the next election. However, saying you won't be a front bench politician, while "not ruling out" another bid for leadership is a cowardly way to go about things.... and the "impartial" cheerleading for it from the BBC is disappointing.

Yes, I suspect that is part of the reason he says he is going to retire to the backbenches and won't accept a cabinet position. Hopefully that backfires on him and his team and he's left knocking at the door asking to be let in.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:53

eatfigs · 02/11/2024 23:33

That doesn't even make sense. How is anyone supposed to plan their finances for years ahead? Unexpected events can happen to anyone.

Edited

Insurance schemes.

RoyalCorgi · 03/11/2024 09:55

WarriorN · 03/11/2024 09:23

@CurlewKate can't work out if that's snide or not; I'm not following much politics at the moment due to work load.

It doesn't make sense to me personally. And I hadn't heard it elsewhere. Dh follows politics more closely than I do, apart from gender stuff and education.

It was widely commented on at the time. In the MPs' ballot, when they got down from four to three, Cleverly had far more votes than either Badenoch or Jenrick. The feeling among Cleverly supporters was that he had a much better chance of winning against Jenrick than against Badenoch, so in the next round, to get down to the final two, some of the Cleverly-supporting MPs are believed to have "lent" their votes to Jenrick, to make sure Badenoch dropped off the ballot. Unfortunately it backfired, and instead it was Cleverly who came bottom.

Nobody knows if this is really what happened, but it seems the most plausible explanation for why Cleverly went from having the most votes to having the fewest.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 09:56

BonfireLady · 03/11/2024 08:21

Fully agree.

I might have to start watching PMQs now. For the first time in years it's going to be more than just a point-scoring "debate society game".

Yes, there will be debate but Starmer won't be able to handwave issues away with quips. I'm sure he'll unleash his underhand side - like the time when he twisted Sunak's words in to somehow being an attack on a murdered child - but Kemi Badenoch has a sharp, fast-thinking mind and keeps facts at her disposal. I'm looking forward to seeing this play out.

🍿🍿🍿

And yes, once she's done all the hard work, Cleverly will probably cleverly swoop in to "save" everyone with a leadership bid/vote of no confidence at just the right moment, when the tricky patch has been overcome. There'll be rhetoric about how "what we need now is stability" etc etc... and the BBC will sigh with relief that it can comfortably carry on promoting gender identity as if it's fact.

Yes, I also think Starmer will be out-smarted and will quickly turn to personal insults and populist, headline grabbing cliches.

SunnyHappyPeople · 03/11/2024 09:58

Shortshriftandlethal · 02/11/2024 11:36

Such a significant win on many levels. So pleased!

Agreed.

Well done her!

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 10:00

ilovesooty · 03/11/2024 09:42

She hasn't got many MPs to choose from. I think Cleverly has made a wise decision.

Edited

I've seen a list of some new and refreshing names........Laura Trott, Claire Coutinho, Julia Lopez, Alex Burghat, Andrew Griffiths.....It needs to be her cabinet and which will provide maximum support.

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 10:02

Snowypeaks · 03/11/2024 09:51

He's ruled himself out of a job in her Shadow Cabinet and not ruled himself out as a future leadership candidate....

You mean Cleverly, not Jenrick? I was referring to Jenrick.

ilovesooty · 03/11/2024 10:25

Shortshriftandlethal · 03/11/2024 10:00

I've seen a list of some new and refreshing names........Laura Trott, Claire Coutinho, Julia Lopez, Alex Burghat, Andrew Griffiths.....It needs to be her cabinet and which will provide maximum support.

You might find those names refreshing. I don't. Opinions are bound to vary.

FreedomDogs · 03/11/2024 10:26

BonfireLady · 03/11/2024 08:37

If you prefer gender identity to be represented as fact in every scenario (e.g. men who identify as women should be allowed in women's sports), it's very possible that Kemi Badenoch doesn't represent you in any way at all, fair enough.

I find her idolisation of Margaret Thatcher baffling, but even so I can see that there are things where Kemi Badenoch does represent me. I admit that I would struggle to say this about Margaret Thatcher though as I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Edited

I don't agree with her stance on trans issues, but it's a hugely disingenuous straw man to pretend that's the only reaspn someone might oppose her - I also don't agree with her stance on immigration, on kids with SEN, on worker's rights, on human rights, on maternity pay - on pretty much every issue. She's a hard right Tory, celebrating her appointment as some kind of feminist victory is absurd. You might as well claim Trump is a feminist, afterall he opposes trans people too.