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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The BBC empathise with women.

35 replies

Ineedhelphere · 02/11/2024 08:15

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0qd1730z78o
Oh, the lack joined up thinking that comes with this article from the BBC.
Every woman knows exactly how this woman feels. Every woman has been through the same experiences.
But if the man happens to wear a dress and lipstick then the same women are bigots 🤷.

Alice, smiling and wearing a warm green jacket alongside her father Nick Robinson, who is wearing glasses and a flat cap hat and dark jacket

Saoirse Ronan: Nick Robinson's daughter talks safety with her dad

BBC host Nick Robinson interviewed his daughter about actress Saoirse Ronan's comment that women think about safety all the time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0qd1730z78o

OP posts:
Toseland · 02/11/2024 08:27

Ah I see, it involves women being frightened with the potential to worry other women so all good by the BBC. Surprised it's not presented by a drag queen.

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 02/11/2024 08:28

They'll feel.sorry for women up until the point that sympathy gets in the way of male 'needs'.

Lalgarh · 02/11/2024 08:56

They just had a guy questioning a hapless teenage guy as to whether he is aware of how women feel on nights out.

He did say he's in a mixed group of friends including girls and it seemed a bit much to lecture him to Do Better but I guess it is an attempt to improve things

This is the original thing that started it. Saoirse Ronan with a little observation on the Graham Norton show

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/29/chatshow-saoirse-ronan-graham-norton-women

I don’t expect stone-cold truths from a chatshow, but Saoirse Ronan delivered one | Marina Hyde

The men on Graham Norton’s sofa found self-defence a hoot. I’m sure most women have found ourselves in that conversation, says Guardian columnist Marina Hyde

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/29/chatshow-saoirse-ronan-graham-norton-women

Theeyeballsinthesky · 02/11/2024 08:58

Toseland · 02/11/2024 08:27

Ah I see, it involves women being frightened with the potential to worry other women so all good by the BBC. Surprised it's not presented by a drag queen.

don’t worry the guardian are on it. They asked 5 women and a man who totally definitely is always mistaken for a woman 🙄www.theguardian.com/society/2024/nov/02/will-anything-change-six-women-react-saoirse-ronans-viral-comment

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 02/11/2024 09:01

For fucks sake, Guardian. No, 70 year old recently 'transitioned' Kim does not face misogyny. You can't resist insulting women even whole professing to defend them.

Lalgarh · 02/11/2024 09:07

I used to keep getting YouTube short clips of a woman who puts together colour coordinated self defence tools, including tasers and Hello Kitty style kitsch but with daggers inside which I'm pretty sure are illegal. I think she's been taken off now

theDudesmummy · 02/11/2024 09:15

I also thought FFS when I read that article in the Guardian this morning. Yes, men can be attacked but it's not the same. Because of where I work I have to do "breakaway" training regularly. I do the training then come home and try out the techniques (for getting away from someone who is holding you in various ways) on DH. None of them work, if he decides to hold on to me and stop me getting away, his strength and reach mean there is nothing I can do about it. It's funny, in that we always have a bit of a laugh. But of course it's really not.

theDudesmummy · 02/11/2024 09:19

It's not even legal to carry Mace-type sprays, but I did for years (bought in another country where they are legal).

Lalgarh · 02/11/2024 09:27

I was walking back through the tunnel in moorgate on the Elizabeth Line (yes. That London) on Thursday evening. There were other ppl there and some guys joshing about some such also some way behind.

There's something about the acoustics in that tunnel that made it feel like they were right behind me and almost like surround sound in 1 ear then another. I realise there wasn't a threat, but it was still unnerving.

The other thing I do now is avoid giving address details if I get a cab back from station. Just the street. Particularly some of the cab drivers seem to know a little too much about the personal lives of some of the passengers they ferry around (one was telling a male relative of mine which guy was supposedly having an affair with which other household). It is this sense that there are some people who know you , that you don't know

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 02/11/2024 10:46

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 02/11/2024 09:01

For fucks sake, Guardian. No, 70 year old recently 'transitioned' Kim does not face misogyny. You can't resist insulting women even whole professing to defend them.

Kim came across as reasonable enough, but needs to reflect on the fact that, if a man made the mistake of attacking Kim, Kim unlike a woman, would have a good chance of fighting him off.

Also, everyone carefully concentrates on being out and about, so the reader isn't dangerously at risk of wondering about the terror of a woman who encounters Kim in a secluded unclothed or toileting situation.

NPET · 02/11/2024 13:15

I'm 20 and considered "conventionally pretty".
I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS ONLY HAPPENS TO "GIRLS" LIKE ME, BUT personally EVERY second of every minute of every hour that I'm not in my own flat, I am aware that men are boys are sneaking looks at me in the vain attempt that I'll look back, and - sorry - but in the hope that, ultimately, they can put their sausage into my roll.
That's the reality!

Catiette · 02/11/2024 14:36

I found the inclusion of Kim quite upsetting. I hesitated over posting because, as PP says, they come across as reasonable and empathetic, and were writing about a shared experience with which I sympathise. But, on reflection, I do feel my be-kind socialisation is stifling an entirely fair and reasonable reaction. As Kim put themselves out there to be included in that article as a “woman”, and Kim is anonymous, my thoughts on why it upset me.

  1. The Guardian publishes accounts by six “women”, of which one is trans. That’s hugely out of proportion to the overall population, giving disproportionate time and space to transwomen’s experiences. It also indicates that Kim had a far, far higher chance of being published than a woman, and Kim’s words took the place of a woman’s words - even as the article implicitly professes to address the issue of men talking over women.

  2. Did Saoirse intend to include transwomen in her original comment? The Guardian’s unquestioning assumption that she did (or, alternatively, their total disregard of her perspective in favour of their own political agenda) does seem rather ironic, given that the entire point of the clip was men’s total disregard for women’s experiences as actually distinct from their own.

  3. That we don’t know which “women” Saoirse did mean - or, worse, that there’s no longer a way for her to have referred exclusively to females without inviting backlash - is, in itself, a devastating example of the impact of the loss of our words. We can no longer refer to ourselves clearly as a distinct group (at least, without linguistic contortions that invite accusations of bigotry). This is appalling.

  4. But what rankles most is the way in which the inclusion of a male voice changes and dilutes the very nature of the issue. The Guardian is complicit in much the same denial, or reframing, of women’s reality, by men that Saoirse was calling out - a total lack of understanding of, and disregard form what it means to navigate the world in a female body. Kim’s concerns may well overlap with ours, as they’ve chosen to adapt some of the cultural signifiers associated with being female. But Kim will almost certainly be taller and stronger than the average woman, with all the relative security that brings - security that we can only dream of. Kim isn’t a target because of their unchangeable, inescapable physical reality. And it’s that, more than anything else, that is the source of our fear. By not distinguishing between us and Kim, the Guardian is actively misrepresenting and obscuring the very experience it claims to be highlighting. It’s participating in the dry sand dismissal of the female experience that it claims to be redressing.

  5. Lastly, I found Kim’s comments on their previous privilege as a man, and subsequent ashamed recognition of the female experience, very interesting. On one level, this could be seen as welcome insight and empathy. But from another perspective, the phrasing, again, reflects the ignorance and arrogance of the male guests on the show. If Kim had said, “I know I can never fully experience what a woman does, due to my innate physical advantage,” I would have been wholeheartedly supportive, if not of their inclusion in the article, then at least of their perspective. But Kim didn’t say this. Instead, Kim implied that their experience is exactly the same as ours - that simply by changing their outward appearance, they become the same as us, and live our exact reality. How does that not diminish us, and in fact deny our own, so very, very different, reality in favour (again) of a male perspective?

  6. And, lastly, there’s the possibility that Kim’s failure to acknowledge their own sex (when others in their position are able to do quite readily), and Kim’s choice, instead, to speak as if a fully embodied woman, is in the service of Kim’s own needs. It benefits Kim psychologically to say this. And it hurts us.

TLDR

Cultural appropriation in any context - shocking, don’t do it.

Appropriation of sexed experience in a context in which the whole point is 1) sexed difference, 2) limited public understanding of the impact of this, and 3) a professed desire to redress this balance - you go, “girl”.

NB. I’d never have typed this 5 years ago. I still find it difficult to in some respects. But, ultimately, it really is as simple as: I’d like to support and sympathise with Kim, but as long as doing so diminishes my own safety, place in society and sense of self, I can’t afford to do so.

Guardian, please just allow women their own experiences and voices. Allow Kim theirs, too, right alongside us! They matter, too. But not as one of us, at our expense, with no recognition of the unbearable irony of doing this in this particular context. By doing this, you make me feel like a second-class citizen in a way I never thought possible growing up. Even many of your articles claiming to promote my voice humiliate, distress and frustrate me. You’ve made me realise my place in society is not what I thought, and the consequent need to fight for more recognition. And in so doing, you’ve lost someone who actually would much prefer to feel able to be an “ally” to many members of this marginalised group - by marginalising her, too.

Catiette · 02/11/2024 14:37

Sorry. Another essay processing my own thoughts.

Catiette · 02/11/2024 14:56

Also. I know that the “many” members of this marginalised group is, in itself, complex and problematic. The umbrella covers those in desperate need of kindness, and those who are, shall we say, more complex. And “allyship” is similarly complex and problematic - I doubt mine would ever have take the absolutist form that’s clearly expected even in my younger and less informed years. For starters, I believe we’re dealing with a huge range of complex issues unhelpfully - cynically! - absorbed into a single word. But my central point is that it’s just so ironic that even what cautious sympathy and support I could and would like to show in certain contexts and ways has been compromised or complicated most of all by the most ardent media promoters of “the cause”, and what they’ve made me realise. (BBC, you’re the other one I refer to…)

Catiette · 02/11/2024 15:01

Still thinking! Stuck at a station, and bored.

Two men near me projecting their Very Important Business Conversation across the platform at extraordinary volume really NOT HELPING MY MOOD!!!

Thought I’d shout that here as I can’t shout (back!) at them!

Catiette · 02/11/2024 15:03

Lastly, I do recognise that if Kim underwent full transition at an early age, some of my above concerns are mitigated. But NOT entirely removed. My experience is different, and valid. Don’t confuse it with a male’s very different experience in an article professing to address the physical disadvantage women endure - and that, the very morning after I just read about female volleyball players enduring a fear response to their own male teammate’s superior strength every time he makes a “kill shot”.

Catiette · 02/11/2024 15:12

Rant over. 😅

Myalternate · 02/11/2024 15:26

The Guardian wants women to share their reactions to Saoirse Ronan’s comments about women’s safety.

www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/31/share-your-reaction-saoirse-ronan-comments-women-safety#5992905

RoyalCorgi · 02/11/2024 15:33

Myalternate I suspect that the six women (or five women and one man) featured in the article above filled in the form you just posted, ie the article is based on responses to that form. I could be wrong, of course, but that seems to be what happened.

The inclusion of a man in the six woman feels like the worst form of gaslighting. It's like asking five black people and one white person about their experience of racism. It's so utterly insulting to take a member of the oppressor group and ask them about their experience of oppression. The Guardian really are the absolute pits.

PreFabBroadBean · 02/11/2024 15:39

I'm bemused by the comments from Kim, who is the same age as me. When I was younger, I was continually pestered by men, even though I was a jeans and jumper kind of person. Now I'm in my 60s, I thankfully walk around with impunity.

Catiette · 02/11/2024 15:57

Exactly, @RoyalCorgi. And much more concisely put than bored, angry me! 😂👍

@Myalternate, I assumed what Corgi did. But I wrote the above kind of hoping against realistic hope that some left-wing journalist may come across it and think about the damage they’re doing to women and potentially* *to the demographic of the moment by such utterly tone deaf posturing…

Snowypeaks · 02/11/2024 16:13

Catiette · 02/11/2024 14:36

I found the inclusion of Kim quite upsetting. I hesitated over posting because, as PP says, they come across as reasonable and empathetic, and were writing about a shared experience with which I sympathise. But, on reflection, I do feel my be-kind socialisation is stifling an entirely fair and reasonable reaction. As Kim put themselves out there to be included in that article as a “woman”, and Kim is anonymous, my thoughts on why it upset me.

  1. The Guardian publishes accounts by six “women”, of which one is trans. That’s hugely out of proportion to the overall population, giving disproportionate time and space to transwomen’s experiences. It also indicates that Kim had a far, far higher chance of being published than a woman, and Kim’s words took the place of a woman’s words - even as the article implicitly professes to address the issue of men talking over women.

  2. Did Saoirse intend to include transwomen in her original comment? The Guardian’s unquestioning assumption that she did (or, alternatively, their total disregard of her perspective in favour of their own political agenda) does seem rather ironic, given that the entire point of the clip was men’s total disregard for women’s experiences as actually distinct from their own.

  3. That we don’t know which “women” Saoirse did mean - or, worse, that there’s no longer a way for her to have referred exclusively to females without inviting backlash - is, in itself, a devastating example of the impact of the loss of our words. We can no longer refer to ourselves clearly as a distinct group (at least, without linguistic contortions that invite accusations of bigotry). This is appalling.

  4. But what rankles most is the way in which the inclusion of a male voice changes and dilutes the very nature of the issue. The Guardian is complicit in much the same denial, or reframing, of women’s reality, by men that Saoirse was calling out - a total lack of understanding of, and disregard form what it means to navigate the world in a female body. Kim’s concerns may well overlap with ours, as they’ve chosen to adapt some of the cultural signifiers associated with being female. But Kim will almost certainly be taller and stronger than the average woman, with all the relative security that brings - security that we can only dream of. Kim isn’t a target because of their unchangeable, inescapable physical reality. And it’s that, more than anything else, that is the source of our fear. By not distinguishing between us and Kim, the Guardian is actively misrepresenting and obscuring the very experience it claims to be highlighting. It’s participating in the dry sand dismissal of the female experience that it claims to be redressing.

  5. Lastly, I found Kim’s comments on their previous privilege as a man, and subsequent ashamed recognition of the female experience, very interesting. On one level, this could be seen as welcome insight and empathy. But from another perspective, the phrasing, again, reflects the ignorance and arrogance of the male guests on the show. If Kim had said, “I know I can never fully experience what a woman does, due to my innate physical advantage,” I would have been wholeheartedly supportive, if not of their inclusion in the article, then at least of their perspective. But Kim didn’t say this. Instead, Kim implied that their experience is exactly the same as ours - that simply by changing their outward appearance, they become the same as us, and live our exact reality. How does that not diminish us, and in fact deny our own, so very, very different, reality in favour (again) of a male perspective?

  6. And, lastly, there’s the possibility that Kim’s failure to acknowledge their own sex (when others in their position are able to do quite readily), and Kim’s choice, instead, to speak as if a fully embodied woman, is in the service of Kim’s own needs. It benefits Kim psychologically to say this. And it hurts us.

TLDR

Cultural appropriation in any context - shocking, don’t do it.

Appropriation of sexed experience in a context in which the whole point is 1) sexed difference, 2) limited public understanding of the impact of this, and 3) a professed desire to redress this balance - you go, “girl”.

NB. I’d never have typed this 5 years ago. I still find it difficult to in some respects. But, ultimately, it really is as simple as: I’d like to support and sympathise with Kim, but as long as doing so diminishes my own safety, place in society and sense of self, I can’t afford to do so.

Guardian, please just allow women their own experiences and voices. Allow Kim theirs, too, right alongside us! They matter, too. But not as one of us, at our expense, with no recognition of the unbearable irony of doing this in this particular context. By doing this, you make me feel like a second-class citizen in a way I never thought possible growing up. Even many of your articles claiming to promote my voice humiliate, distress and frustrate me. You’ve made me realise my place in society is not what I thought, and the consequent need to fight for more recognition. And in so doing, you’ve lost someone who actually would much prefer to feel able to be an “ally” to many members of this marginalised group - by marginalising her, too.

Edited

Fantastic post, nails it.

Do not feel bad about what you said. Not for one second. Kim sounds like Kim is cosplaying for validation.

birdiesings · 02/11/2024 16:32

Kim is a bloke pretending to be a woman. He is not "reasonable", he is a danger. His "reasonableness" is his very weapon. Do not allow yourself to be blinded by deceitful men.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/11/2024 16:59

Catiette · 02/11/2024 14:36

I found the inclusion of Kim quite upsetting. I hesitated over posting because, as PP says, they come across as reasonable and empathetic, and were writing about a shared experience with which I sympathise. But, on reflection, I do feel my be-kind socialisation is stifling an entirely fair and reasonable reaction. As Kim put themselves out there to be included in that article as a “woman”, and Kim is anonymous, my thoughts on why it upset me.

  1. The Guardian publishes accounts by six “women”, of which one is trans. That’s hugely out of proportion to the overall population, giving disproportionate time and space to transwomen’s experiences. It also indicates that Kim had a far, far higher chance of being published than a woman, and Kim’s words took the place of a woman’s words - even as the article implicitly professes to address the issue of men talking over women.

  2. Did Saoirse intend to include transwomen in her original comment? The Guardian’s unquestioning assumption that she did (or, alternatively, their total disregard of her perspective in favour of their own political agenda) does seem rather ironic, given that the entire point of the clip was men’s total disregard for women’s experiences as actually distinct from their own.

  3. That we don’t know which “women” Saoirse did mean - or, worse, that there’s no longer a way for her to have referred exclusively to females without inviting backlash - is, in itself, a devastating example of the impact of the loss of our words. We can no longer refer to ourselves clearly as a distinct group (at least, without linguistic contortions that invite accusations of bigotry). This is appalling.

  4. But what rankles most is the way in which the inclusion of a male voice changes and dilutes the very nature of the issue. The Guardian is complicit in much the same denial, or reframing, of women’s reality, by men that Saoirse was calling out - a total lack of understanding of, and disregard form what it means to navigate the world in a female body. Kim’s concerns may well overlap with ours, as they’ve chosen to adapt some of the cultural signifiers associated with being female. But Kim will almost certainly be taller and stronger than the average woman, with all the relative security that brings - security that we can only dream of. Kim isn’t a target because of their unchangeable, inescapable physical reality. And it’s that, more than anything else, that is the source of our fear. By not distinguishing between us and Kim, the Guardian is actively misrepresenting and obscuring the very experience it claims to be highlighting. It’s participating in the dry sand dismissal of the female experience that it claims to be redressing.

  5. Lastly, I found Kim’s comments on their previous privilege as a man, and subsequent ashamed recognition of the female experience, very interesting. On one level, this could be seen as welcome insight and empathy. But from another perspective, the phrasing, again, reflects the ignorance and arrogance of the male guests on the show. If Kim had said, “I know I can never fully experience what a woman does, due to my innate physical advantage,” I would have been wholeheartedly supportive, if not of their inclusion in the article, then at least of their perspective. But Kim didn’t say this. Instead, Kim implied that their experience is exactly the same as ours - that simply by changing their outward appearance, they become the same as us, and live our exact reality. How does that not diminish us, and in fact deny our own, so very, very different, reality in favour (again) of a male perspective?

  6. And, lastly, there’s the possibility that Kim’s failure to acknowledge their own sex (when others in their position are able to do quite readily), and Kim’s choice, instead, to speak as if a fully embodied woman, is in the service of Kim’s own needs. It benefits Kim psychologically to say this. And it hurts us.

TLDR

Cultural appropriation in any context - shocking, don’t do it.

Appropriation of sexed experience in a context in which the whole point is 1) sexed difference, 2) limited public understanding of the impact of this, and 3) a professed desire to redress this balance - you go, “girl”.

NB. I’d never have typed this 5 years ago. I still find it difficult to in some respects. But, ultimately, it really is as simple as: I’d like to support and sympathise with Kim, but as long as doing so diminishes my own safety, place in society and sense of self, I can’t afford to do so.

Guardian, please just allow women their own experiences and voices. Allow Kim theirs, too, right alongside us! They matter, too. But not as one of us, at our expense, with no recognition of the unbearable irony of doing this in this particular context. By doing this, you make me feel like a second-class citizen in a way I never thought possible growing up. Even many of your articles claiming to promote my voice humiliate, distress and frustrate me. You’ve made me realise my place in society is not what I thought, and the consequent need to fight for more recognition. And in so doing, you’ve lost someone who actually would much prefer to feel able to be an “ally” to many members of this marginalised group - by marginalising her, too.

Edited

What a great post @Catiette

Thank you for articulating this so thoughtfully Flowers

Screamingabdabz · 02/11/2024 17:03

Catiette · 02/11/2024 14:37

Sorry. Another essay processing my own thoughts.

Absolutely spot on though. 👌🏼