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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

EU Settlement Scheme (interim guidance): Gender identity and sex markers on documents – Published by Home Office 31 October 2024

13 replies

IwantToRetire · 01/11/2024 18:52

This section tells you about processing applications under the EU Settlement Scheme where an applicant uses a gender or gender and name that is different to the details recorded on their identity or travel document.

For guidance on documents which are acceptable as required proof of identity and nationality or proof of entitlement to apply from outside the UK please see: EU Settlement Scheme: EU, other EEA and Swiss citizens and their family members.

Introduction

There may be applicants under the EU Settlement Scheme who may be transitioning, or have transitioned, from one gender to another, or may not recognise themselves as being either of male or female gender, such as non-binary sex, or ‘self-declare’ as being of a different gender from that on their identity documents.

These applicants may present identity documents with sex markers that do not reflect their gender identity and therefore such applicants may wish to be known to the Home Office by a different sex marker. There may be other applicants who may change their gender after their status has been granted, or who have identity or travel documentation which indicates a sex marker other than ‘male’ or ‘female’.

This guidance is concerned with the identity in which settled or pre-settled status can be granted. The conditions set out in this guidance do not affect an applicant’s eligibility for settled or pre-settled status that applicants can obtain in the name and sex marker recorded on their submitted identity or travel document.

This guidance applies to all applicants under the EU Settlement Scheme, regardless of their nationality. This guidance reflects the published Use and change of name policy, which states that ‘Transgender foreign nationals whose national authorities do not recognise changes to names and/or gender in their passports or national identity cards will be able to register for a UKVI account to access their eVisa in their acquired name and gender, providing the person can demonstrate they are using the acquired name and gender for all purposes.’

Sex and gender identity in the United Kingdom

A person’s sex is determined by their biological characteristics including physical and genetic differences. A person’s gender identity refers to the person’s self-identity. This is not necessarily based on their biological characteristics and is determined by how the person feels. A person’s gender identity may be something other than male or female. In the UK a person is assigned a sex, either male or female, at birth based on their biological characteristics. UK law only recognises male and female sex. There are some countries which do recognise sexes other than male and female.

For the purposes of this guidance, ‘transgender’ refers to a person who has undergone a transition from one binary gender (male or female) to another binary gender (male or female).

Introduction to the complete guidelines which are at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/670cdfee080bdf716392f26f/EU+Settlement+Scheme+-+gender+identity+and+sex+markers+on+documents.pdf

I will admit I have not read this, apart from the intro above.

But I know there are some on FWR who do take time to read and digets information like this.

So not sure what it said before, but this was updated yesterday.

OP posts:
HipTightOnions · 01/11/2024 19:21

I think that any government body that uses the word "gender" should first be required to explain what they mean by it.

IwantToRetire · 01/11/2024 19:32

HipTightOnions · 01/11/2024 19:21

I think that any government body that uses the word "gender" should first be required to explain what they mean by it.

They do - did you read to the end of the extract I quoted?!

OP posts:
HipTightOnions · 01/11/2024 19:45

No, sorry, just your extract.

I'll read it now and hope to be enlightened!

HipTightOnions · 01/11/2024 19:46

Misread your reply !

I still can't see any definition of "gender".

OldCrone · 01/11/2024 19:46

IwantToRetire · 01/11/2024 19:32

They do - did you read to the end of the extract I quoted?!

They don't explain what they mean by 'gender'. They give a sort of description of what a gender identity is, but they don't explain what relevance this has to a person's sex other than that a gender identity can be "something other than male or female".

Meaningless gobbledygook.

HipTightOnions · 01/11/2024 19:48

They don't explain what they mean by 'gender'.

No one ever does. As soon as I see the bloody word I want to say "Could I just stop you there..."

IwantToRetire · 01/11/2024 19:52

OldCrone · 01/11/2024 19:46

They don't explain what they mean by 'gender'. They give a sort of description of what a gender identity is, but they don't explain what relevance this has to a person's sex other than that a gender identity can be "something other than male or female".

Meaningless gobbledygook.

They dont have to explain "gender" in this context!

They are talking about the fact that some people claim to have a "gender identity" which they do explain.

But interestingly then go on to say:

In the UK a person is assigned a sex, either male or female, at birth based on their biological characteristics. UK law only recognises male and female sex. There are some countries which do recognise sexes other than male and female.

(note the use of the word "assigned")

But then go on to say:

For the purposes of this guidance, ‘transgender’ refers to a person who has undergone a transition from one binary gender (male or female) to another binary gender (male or female).

I presume this is about having to comply with what other countries have made legal.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 01/11/2024 19:59

This guidance tells you how to consider applications under the EU Settlement
Scheme (EUSS) that involve a change of gender or name and gender, including the use of sex markers other than ‘male’ or ‘female’.

What does a change of 'gender' have to do with sex markers? Are sex and gender the same thing?

There may be applicants under the EU Settlement Scheme who may be
transitioning, or have transitioned, from one gender to another, or may not recognise themselves as being either of male or female gender, such as non-binary sex, or ‘self-declare’ as being of a different gender from that on their identity documents.

Does their sex change when they transition "from one gender to another"? Why does pretending that they are not "either of male or female gender" make them of "non-binary sex"? Are sex and gender the same thing?

These applicants may present identity documents with sex markers that do not
reflect their gender identity and therefore such applicants may wish to be known to the Home Office by a different sex marker.

Why should sex markers reflect a made up "gender identity"? Are sex and gender identity the same thing?

I could go on... but I'll stop there. I've only reached the 14th mention of 'gender' out of 101 in the whole document.

Still no definition of gender though. It's not clear if gender, gender identity and sex are all considered to be the same thing. If not, what is the relationship between them?

OldCrone · 01/11/2024 20:04

They dont have to explain "gender" in this context!

At risk of crossposting again, they say this about transitioning 'from one gender to another':

There may be applicants under the EU Settlement Scheme who may be
transitioning, or have transitioned, from one gender to another, or may not recognise themselves as being either of male or female gender, such as non-binary sex, or ‘self-declare’ as being of a different gender from that on their identity documents.

This suggests that they think gender and sex are the same thing. So they do need to define gender. Is it the same thing as sex or not? If not, why does someone's gender have any bearing on their sex as shown on their identity documents?

OldCrone · 01/11/2024 20:16

Sex and gender identity in the United Kingdom
A person’s sex is determined by their biological characteristics including physical and genetic differences. A person’s gender identity refers to the person’s self-identity. This is not necessarily based on their biological characteristics and is determined by how the person feels. A person’s gender identity may be something other than male or female. In the UK a person is assigned a sex, either male or female, at birth based on their biological characteristics. UK law only recognises male and female sex. There are some countries which do recognise sexes other than male and female.
For the purposes of this guidance, ‘transgender’ refers to a person who has
undergone a transition from one binary gender (male or female) to another binary gender (male or female).

Let's try and make some sense out of this.

A person’s sex is determined by their biological characteristics including physical and genetic differences. A person’s gender identity refers to the person’s self-identity.

Self identity in what respect? What is this gender identity based on?

This is not necessarily based on their biological characteristics and is determined by how the person feels.

Feels about what?

A person’s gender identity may be something other than male or female.

Why should it be anything to do with male or female? Male and female are sexes. Gender identity (as we've just been told) is a "person's self-identity". As far as we know, this could all be based on their favourite colour or what sort of music they like.

In the UK a person is assigned a sex, either male or female, at birth based on their biological characteristics. UK law only recognises male and female sex. There are some countries which do recognise sexes other than male and female.

There are no other sexes than male or female. Why do these countries recognise things that don't exist?

For the purposes of this guidance, ‘transgender’ refers to a person who has
undergone a transition from one binary gender (male or female) to another binary gender (male or female).

Male and female aren't genders, they're sexes. People can't transition from one sex to the other because it's impossible for humans to change sex. Genders are masculine and feminine. If people want to 'transition' from masculine to feminine or vice versa, that's fine - be as masculine or feminine as you want. But what has this to do with sex?

We can't make any sense out of this document because it's completely nonsensical.

JeremiahBullfrog · 01/11/2024 20:44

What's the point of including this stuff on identity documents if you can just make it up? Can you digitally alter your eye colour in the little photograph as well?

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/11/2024 20:54

‘""'transgender’ refers to a person who has undergone a transition from one binary gender (male or female) to another binary gender (male or female)."

What utter nonsense.

I would like you to see any evidence that this can & does happen.

We all know no one can change sex & "transition" has been used recklessly & wrongly here.

What they are talking about more correctly would be :

""'transgender’ refers to a person who stops identifying with the gender stereotypes stereotypically associated with one binary sex (male or female) and now self identifies with the gender stereotypes stereotypically associated with another binary sex (male or female)."

SallyForf · 01/11/2024 21:09

Christ on an actual bike.
Who wrote this doggerel? They want their bumps felt.

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