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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS England withdraws EDI Training…

23 replies

NitroNine · 29/10/2024 09:36

All it took was the Daily Mail expressing an interest… what interests me is NHSE saying that the content is “out of date”. It was never in-date. Perhaps it was in a parallel universe, but as we don’t generally write &/or amend guidance with the multiverse in mind; I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that the EDI bits of the NHS collectively lost the absolute run of themselves & jumped into “getting ahead of the law”, creating guidance based on Stonewall Law as opposed to, you know, the actual law. I’m all for offering protections beyond the law. For example, ensuring that all the fecking heavy fire doors in hospitals have the wee magic button that means I’ve not either to try & kick them down or wait for an abled person to hove into view so I can hail them & beg for their assistance. That would be just grand. Saying male people can just “identify” their way into female spaces though? Feck right off with that; & with characterising objections to their presence as transphobia…

Anyway, be interesting to see what they come up with next. If we hear more howls than usual about NHS transphobia, it’s worth bearing in mind it may not be Cass/Streeting!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14008569/Fury-NHS-tells-women-unacceptable-not-share-toilets-trans-people.html

https://t.co/lG5aFxdehv

OP posts:
NoBinturongsHereMate · 29/10/2024 09:45

I didn't think of the Daily Mail for sorrting that one - seems they work faster than my options of complaint to HR (and refusing to move past page 5 of the training, which mis-stated the law) and sending it as an example.to Badenoch's collection.

Glamourreader · 29/10/2024 09:58

Well good, it's a step in the right direction but there's no excuse for having signed off on this blatantly appalling training in the first place.

heathspeedwell · 29/10/2024 10:07

I hope this is true. But we need to learn lessons from it and work out how it was allowed to get so out of control in the first place. We also need to ask just how much money was wasted on this crazy training, when those funds could have been spent on nurses' wages?

MarieDeGournay · 29/10/2024 10:33

I've noticed a number of references in the 'business' pages of newspapers to 'a recent pushback against EDI in the workplace'.

It's usually presented as the result of the rise of right-wing and anti-progressive sentiment in society in general, and nobody seems to be analysing the timing of this pushback, and which aspects of EDI are problematic.

The only solution seems to be more of the same, possibly backed up by more sanctions.

Hopefully someone will come up with a thorough and pragmatic analysis of why it has become so unpopular and controversial, and so open to legal challenge.

BabaYagasHouse · 29/10/2024 12:13

This podcast is good on the topic, MarieDeGournay:

"This isn't Working" (Tanya de Grunwald"

open.spotify.com/show/6JPOAzCz3zhNgRipzpZmPc?si=SnDAKxzeTt6K2o2njzSNEg

MarieDeGournay · 29/10/2024 12:29

Thanks that's great BabaYagasHouse.

Chersfrozenface · 29/10/2024 12:42

One wonders also whether the timing of the "withdrawal" had anything to do with Wes Streeting, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, taking an interest in the Darlington nurses.

Or perhaps a number of factors have aligned at around the same time.

Igmum · 29/10/2024 12:52

It's excellent news, but I agree with @MarieDeGournay and have long been worried that the backlash against lunatic TRAs will see women, disabled people, LGB, POC and other groups further disadvantaged. We are not yet anywhere near a point where everyone has equal access to jobs, promotions, pay etc. we've been diverted to rainbow flags for too long, which employers love because it costs bugger all on adaptations and boosts the marketing budget. I'd like to see a solid EDI system with fewer stunning and brave flags and more improving access to work and promotions for disadvantaged groups.

DrRiverSong · 29/10/2024 12:54

BabaYagasHouse · 29/10/2024 12:13

This podcast is good on the topic, MarieDeGournay:

"This isn't Working" (Tanya de Grunwald"

open.spotify.com/show/6JPOAzCz3zhNgRipzpZmPc?si=SnDAKxzeTt6K2o2njzSNEg

Tanya is worth a follow on LinkedIn. She has some interesting thoughts about how EDI needs to step back and do what it should be doing in looking holistically at inclusion for everyone in the workplace.

highame · 29/10/2024 15:40

Whenever something positive happens, something that further tips the balance, I go back to Dentons and say, thank you Dentons for showing us what TRA's were about and how they came so far and how important continued fightback is. Here it is, just so you can have a bit of a gloat (not a big one), just a little, well deserved pat on the back

GOOD PRACTICES FOR NGO ADVOCACY In recent years, varying advocacy techniques have been employed by NGOs and politicians in their efforts to effect change in their countries with regard to legal gender recognition. While cultural and political factors play a key role in the approach to be taken, there are certain techniques that emerge as being effective in progressing trans rights in the ‘good practice’ countries.
1. Target youth politicians Activists found it particularly helpful to get youth wings political parties on side, as main wings of political parties are often keen to listen and take the views of their younger counterparts seriously. In some cases, activists found it useful to make the point that youth politicians are the senior politicians of the future and that any changes that they are in favour of will inevitably be the policies of the future and are more likely to be on “the right side of history”. Some campaigns found that allowing youth politicians to advocate for legal gender recognition to be extended to minors was compelling, perhaps because they are well placed to empathise with the situation of their peers.

2.De-medicalise the campaign Many of the activists we interviewed mentioned de-medicalisation of gender recognition laws being important in their campaigns. De-medicalisation involves separating the legal gender recognition process from the public association with medical treatment or diagnoses. It was observed that the public often finds it difficult to separate these two concepts and this can result in apprehension about expanding access to legal gender recognition processes. Indeed, in certain countries, medical and legal processes are still interlinked. Therefore, campaigns which seek to reform legal gender recognition laws have the task of separating these concepts through educational campaigns, so that legal gender recognition can be seen in the eyes of the public as distinct from gender confirmation treatments. This also means minors may be more likely to be 19 Only Adults? Good Practices in Legal Gender Recognition for Youth able to access the processes, as one of the reasons often cited by opponents and critics in such countries for denying such access to minors is that young people should not have irreversible surgeries until they are of the age of maturity. Activists have sought to educate the public that legal gender recognition is a purely civil process.
3. Use case studies of real people Telling real stories of people who have gone through the legal gender recognition process humanises and personalises the campaign, better enabling politicians and the general public to relate, increasing empathy and understanding. This technique has been used in several countries to great effect, most notably in Malta. This campaign technique is not always possible due to the cultural environment in the specific country. For example, in the UK, the debate surrounding reform of legal gender recognition laws has been politically charged and trans people have suffered more hate crime than in previous years. Therefore, the employment of such techniques should proceed with caution and organizations should take all necessary measures to protect the individuals involved.
4.Anonymise the narratives Most notably in Malta, TV programmes and/or other fictional narratives based upon real stories which are acted out have made an impact on swaying public perceptions. These can be helpful where a person does not feel safe to be put on a platform (online or otherwise) for fear of abuse. 5.Get ahead of the government agenda and the media story In many of the NGO advocacy campaigns that we studied, there were clear benefits where NGOs managed to get ahead of the government and publish progressive legislative proposal before the government had time to develop their own. NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate proposal than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposal. Where NGOs fail to intervene early, the ultimate gender recognition legislation may be far less progressive than activists would like. This lesson applies equally to the media. There is a real risk that where advocates fail to intervene early, sensitizing the media and the public to trans rights in general and legal gender recognition in particular, persistent negative and pernicious narratives about the trans rights agenda may take hold in the public imagination which will negatively influence the legislative process and the prospects for success.
6.Use human rights as a campaign point Based on our research, human rights arguments have been instrumental to the success of several campaigns for more progressive gender recognition laws. In Norway, human rights arguments were a cornerstone of activists’ campaigns. Prior to the most recent legal reforms, those seeking to legally change gender in practice had to undergo sterilisation (although this requirement did not appear in formal legislation). The result was that Norwegian campaigners had a compelling argument that the human rights of trans people were being breached and this was a key factor in the success of their campaign.

NitroNine · 29/10/2024 16:29

It does break the wee lump of coal I have masquerading as a heart that TRAs have so thoroughly wrecked EDI. Yet again privileged white men have managed to take a tool that was meant to help even things up a wee bit & managed to centre themselves. Women as a class need EDI; & some groups of women need it more than others [just as there are groups of men who need it].

Somehow, though, it’s all & only about the LGBT; emphasis very much on the last letter. It’s like “intersectional feminism” now being understood as “male-centring feminism”. Good feminism is intersectional; & it understands that women’s experiences vary hugely & are shaped by multiple factors - but we are all female. The idea of centring male people who’ve decided they “identify as female” is not feminism of any kind.

<sigh> just needed to let that out, apparently, sorry…

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 29/10/2024 16:55

highame · 29/10/2024 15:40

Whenever something positive happens, something that further tips the balance, I go back to Dentons and say, thank you Dentons for showing us what TRA's were about and how they came so far and how important continued fightback is. Here it is, just so you can have a bit of a gloat (not a big one), just a little, well deserved pat on the back

GOOD PRACTICES FOR NGO ADVOCACY In recent years, varying advocacy techniques have been employed by NGOs and politicians in their efforts to effect change in their countries with regard to legal gender recognition. While cultural and political factors play a key role in the approach to be taken, there are certain techniques that emerge as being effective in progressing trans rights in the ‘good practice’ countries.
1. Target youth politicians Activists found it particularly helpful to get youth wings political parties on side, as main wings of political parties are often keen to listen and take the views of their younger counterparts seriously. In some cases, activists found it useful to make the point that youth politicians are the senior politicians of the future and that any changes that they are in favour of will inevitably be the policies of the future and are more likely to be on “the right side of history”. Some campaigns found that allowing youth politicians to advocate for legal gender recognition to be extended to minors was compelling, perhaps because they are well placed to empathise with the situation of their peers.

2.De-medicalise the campaign Many of the activists we interviewed mentioned de-medicalisation of gender recognition laws being important in their campaigns. De-medicalisation involves separating the legal gender recognition process from the public association with medical treatment or diagnoses. It was observed that the public often finds it difficult to separate these two concepts and this can result in apprehension about expanding access to legal gender recognition processes. Indeed, in certain countries, medical and legal processes are still interlinked. Therefore, campaigns which seek to reform legal gender recognition laws have the task of separating these concepts through educational campaigns, so that legal gender recognition can be seen in the eyes of the public as distinct from gender confirmation treatments. This also means minors may be more likely to be 19 Only Adults? Good Practices in Legal Gender Recognition for Youth able to access the processes, as one of the reasons often cited by opponents and critics in such countries for denying such access to minors is that young people should not have irreversible surgeries until they are of the age of maturity. Activists have sought to educate the public that legal gender recognition is a purely civil process.
3. Use case studies of real people Telling real stories of people who have gone through the legal gender recognition process humanises and personalises the campaign, better enabling politicians and the general public to relate, increasing empathy and understanding. This technique has been used in several countries to great effect, most notably in Malta. This campaign technique is not always possible due to the cultural environment in the specific country. For example, in the UK, the debate surrounding reform of legal gender recognition laws has been politically charged and trans people have suffered more hate crime than in previous years. Therefore, the employment of such techniques should proceed with caution and organizations should take all necessary measures to protect the individuals involved.
4.Anonymise the narratives Most notably in Malta, TV programmes and/or other fictional narratives based upon real stories which are acted out have made an impact on swaying public perceptions. These can be helpful where a person does not feel safe to be put on a platform (online or otherwise) for fear of abuse. 5.Get ahead of the government agenda and the media story In many of the NGO advocacy campaigns that we studied, there were clear benefits where NGOs managed to get ahead of the government and publish progressive legislative proposal before the government had time to develop their own. NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate proposal than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposal. Where NGOs fail to intervene early, the ultimate gender recognition legislation may be far less progressive than activists would like. This lesson applies equally to the media. There is a real risk that where advocates fail to intervene early, sensitizing the media and the public to trans rights in general and legal gender recognition in particular, persistent negative and pernicious narratives about the trans rights agenda may take hold in the public imagination which will negatively influence the legislative process and the prospects for success.
6.Use human rights as a campaign point Based on our research, human rights arguments have been instrumental to the success of several campaigns for more progressive gender recognition laws. In Norway, human rights arguments were a cornerstone of activists’ campaigns. Prior to the most recent legal reforms, those seeking to legally change gender in practice had to undergo sterilisation (although this requirement did not appear in formal legislation). The result was that Norwegian campaigners had a compelling argument that the human rights of trans people were being breached and this was a key factor in the success of their campaign.

Edited

The Dentons report cannot be spread wide or far enough in my opinion.

IwantToRetire · 31/10/2024 00:57

Just commenting here as hadn't realised this thread existed!

As yet there is no public statement about the training being withdrawn.

There is a lot of online information about staff consultation on up dating the EDI training "to bring it up to date".

Looking at the SEEN in Health twitter feed it seems they wrote to the NHS at the start of the month https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1850854190437835093.html#google_vignette

As did Sex Matters https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/nhs-england-training-calls-staff-transphobic-if-they-wont-share-toilets-with-the-opposite-sex/

And its clear the DM picked up on the SMs info.

Really just posting to highlight the work of campaign groups.

But yes the DM writing up has at least got a verbal quote if not anything in writing about "up dating". ie no admission of what they got so wrong. Presumably if they did staff who had objected or felt undermined by it could raise a complaint.

Thread by @SEENinHealth on Thread Reader App

@SEENinHealth: 1/3 What a great start to this rainy week, we at SiH have continually raised concerns and highlighted the inaccuracies in the EDI training within NHSE over a number of years. The training is mandatory...…

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1850854190437835093.html#google_vignette

Harassedevictee · 31/10/2024 11:22

Chersfrozenface · 29/10/2024 12:42

One wonders also whether the timing of the "withdrawal" had anything to do with Wes Streeting, Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, taking an interest in the Darlington nurses.

Or perhaps a number of factors have aligned at around the same time.

I would not be surprised to see this case settled out of court. There would be a pre-agreed statement

Jo Phoenix, Roz Adam’s, Rachel Meade etc. ETs showed how badly the employer representatives came across when being cross examined.

I think the NHS will be re-evaluating whether they really want to argue this case in open court. Particularly if Wes Streeting is having a quiet word.

I believe the trans person is asking for anonymity so they maybe referred to as Person A rather than John/Julia Smith (generic name for illustrative purposes).

NitroNine · 31/10/2024 11:40

Thanks @IwantToRetire - it’s really easy to miss threads on FWR: the boards move so fast & there’s so much to cover! Additional context like this is invaluable 😊

OP posts:
Hoardasurass · 31/10/2024 12:03

Harassedevictee · 31/10/2024 11:22

I would not be surprised to see this case settled out of court. There would be a pre-agreed statement

Jo Phoenix, Roz Adam’s, Rachel Meade etc. ETs showed how badly the employer representatives came across when being cross examined.

I think the NHS will be re-evaluating whether they really want to argue this case in open court. Particularly if Wes Streeting is having a quiet word.

I believe the trans person is asking for anonymity so they maybe referred to as Person A rather than John/Julia Smith (generic name for illustrative purposes).

It might but the 1 in fife won't.

Tallisker · 31/10/2024 12:05

I believe the trans person is asking for anonymity so they maybe referred to as Person A rather than John/Julia Smith (generic name for illustrative purposes).

Same in the two current civil service tribunals which have been brought by a trans person and their allies.

Should anonymity be granted?

Zimunya · 31/10/2024 12:10

DrRiverSong · 29/10/2024 12:54

Tanya is worth a follow on LinkedIn. She has some interesting thoughts about how EDI needs to step back and do what it should be doing in looking holistically at inclusion for everyone in the workplace.

Yes, she's absolutely brilliant, and won't be cowed into submission, no matter how much people try to bully her. A rare voice of reason in the EDI / HR wilderness.

Harassedevictee · 31/10/2024 12:30

Tallisker · 31/10/2024 12:05

I believe the trans person is asking for anonymity so they maybe referred to as Person A rather than John/Julia Smith (generic name for illustrative purposes).

Same in the two current civil service tribunals which have been brought by a trans person and their allies.

Should anonymity be granted?

It’s a difficult one but on balance yes. I believe in open justice but allowing a person anonymity whilst still being included in evidence can be the right approach. I think it happened in Allison’s case.

In this case the claimants are the nurses and the respondent is the hospital who made the policy. The TW’s name is not relevant because it is the hospital policy under scrutiny. If the case was against the TW that would be different.

A good example is if a patients group took action against the hospital whose policy was to allow TW on female wards. I would expect the poor female patient who was raped to be given anonymity.

NellieTheElephant1 · 31/10/2024 13:20

Oh this is interesting to see! I also complained to NHS England in July about the training content being factually incorrect and misleading. Didn't hear anything back other than an acknowledgment of my email 🤔

Tallisker · 31/10/2024 13:39

@Harassedevictee I agree wholeheartedly

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 01/11/2024 14:44

Harassedevictee · 31/10/2024 12:30

It’s a difficult one but on balance yes. I believe in open justice but allowing a person anonymity whilst still being included in evidence can be the right approach. I think it happened in Allison’s case.

In this case the claimants are the nurses and the respondent is the hospital who made the policy. The TW’s name is not relevant because it is the hospital policy under scrutiny. If the case was against the TW that would be different.

A good example is if a patients group took action against the hospital whose policy was to allow TW on female wards. I would expect the poor female patient who was raped to be given anonymity.

I agree.

Before the world went mad:

CDDFT would have initiated Disciplinary Proceedings against the male staff member as well as reporting the offender to the NMC and to the Police, ie. for Voyeurism under the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/schedule/3

If CDDFT had ignored the complaint from the nurses then they would have taken out a Grievance against the CDDFT NHS Trust for failing to protect them from Sexual Harassment.

It is inconceivable that, before the world went mad, the nurses would have had to take this case to an Employment Tribunal.

However, the world went mad a lot longer ago than I realised. A nurse gives testimony at the end of this video that 20 years ago she and other female nurses were forced to share a changing room with a man who claimed to be a woman:

https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1mnxeAVlXrrxX

DungareesAndTrombones · 02/11/2024 13:13

I'm on a full day's EDI training soon with the NHS and I'm dreading it. Although it was heartening that at the last training the (male, white, british) facilitator announced his pronouns in introductions and nobody else followed suit. Hah.

I would really like EDI training to be delivered by people who are from different cultures and groups and religions because I feel that would be so much more meaningful. I've learned more from a colleague about her culture and religion just in conversation than I've ever learned from pronoun bores.

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