Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland heading for Supreme Court

1000 replies

Imnobody4 · 07/10/2024 23:19

You can read the reasons etc in For Women Scotlands crowdfunder. They are launching this review
UK Supreme Court: The Definition of Sex in the Equality Act

The Inner House of the Court of Session Judgment

We believe the Equality Act was drafted on the basis of the ordinary, common law understanding of the biological differences between the two sexes. The protected characteristic of “sex” in the Equality Act is defined as a reference to a man or a woman, where man means “a male of any age” and woman means “a female of any age”. We think it is quite clear that these are distinct and separate groups and that “woman” is not a mixed-sex category.

However, in our recent judicial review, For Women Scotland v The Scottish Ministers [2023] CSIH 37, the Inner House took the opposite view and decided there is a relationship between the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) and Equality Act 2010 and held that the meaning of sex in the Equality Act incorporated the GRA framework.

The court decision stated that a person with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) in their acquired gender has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Separately, they also possess the protected characteristic of sex according to the terms of their GRC and have a presumptive right to access the single-sex services of their acquired gender.

The Supreme Court will consider a request brought by For Women Scotland (FWS) who argue there are “strong grounds” for its challenge, which will almost certainly overturn contentious Scottish government legislation if successful.Campaigners for women’s “sex-based” rights reacted with delight to the news, including Magi Gibson, the poet, who posted on X/Twitter, that it was “game on” on in the “fight for the protection of women’s rights within the UK legal system”.Dennis Noel Kavanagh, a lawyer and the director of Gay Men’s Network, said: “Getting permission to go to the Supreme Court is really hard and very rare but FWS have it. The question ‘what is a woman’ in law will now be heard by our highest court. Massive news.”

www.thetimes.com/article/088ae0ce-fba9-4b97-8331-01a32195bef5?shareToken=3ada340957f5d2af2e20b01a7c15da3b

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
WarriorN · 26/11/2024 12:09

lol - "it's common sense"

Love this guy

chilling19 · 26/11/2024 12:11

BUNDLE!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:11

Bundle issues!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:12

X post Grin

chilling19 · 26/11/2024 12:14

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:12

X post Grin

Maybe we should set up our own company and offer bundle services, 😂😂😂

Snowypeaks · 26/11/2024 12:14

I'm shocked that the judge said that the Equality Act provisions are not concerned with visible differences. I mean...men or women. Black, brown and white people. Pregnant women. Wheelchair users. Sikhs with turbans. Jewish men wearing a jarmulka. Old and young people. No visible differences there?
What a fatuous remark.

I really liked that AO'N said that sex is only complicated when you define it as certificated sex.

TeamKenwood · 26/11/2024 12:14

He’s right, you can’t tell by looking whether someone is homosexual. However, you can tell by looking, with > 99% accuracy, whether someone is a human male or female.

The fact he can’t tell the difference is concerning.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:16

It smacks of activist language to me.

chilling19 · 26/11/2024 12:17

It's funny - when I chose my username it meant chill out. Now chilling means a barrier to free speech.

AgathaChristmas · 26/11/2024 12:19

Which specific judges are hearing this?

HarpQuartet · 26/11/2024 12:23

I think it's good that the judge said that you can't tell if someone is homosexual by looking at them, because it's the sort of question/argument that is likely to come up in real life, and needs to be addressed.

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 26/11/2024 12:24

AgathaChristmas · 26/11/2024 12:19

Which specific judges are hearing this?

Lord Reed, Lord Hodge, Lord Lloyd-Jones, Lady Rose, Lady Simler

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:27

There's an excellent example used by TRA pressure group "Press for Change" on the Let's Go Back to 2007 thread at the time of the drafting of the EA:

First up: Press for Change https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htmm^

What's most interesting here is that PfC draw the transgender umbrella very wide:

"In the broadest use of the term, a transgender person crosses the conventional boundaries of gender; in clothing; in presenting themselves; even as far as having multiple surgical procedures to be fully bodily reassigned in their preferred gender role.

In this report we will normally use the term 'trans people' to describe those people who might be described as falling broadly within this context, as it has become the term of normal use since the coining of it by Press for Change for their 1996 mission statement: "Seeking respect and equality for ALL trans people"[2]. People who identify as transsexual are a small part of this spectrum and may or may not have had medical treatment to alter their physical appearance"

What's also interesting is that PfC's prime example of hatred is an elderly woman who (in the quoted newspaper article) does not want a male-born carer (with or without a GRC):

"Example 1: "Exclusive Fright Nurse: Sex-swap carer

A pensioner was horrified when a "strapping" 6ft sex-change carer turned up to bathe her. Frail Kathy Yates, 88 specifically requested a female to assist her at home. Daughter Kathleen, 48 fumed: "When the carer came through the door, I nearly keeled over. "It looked like a man dressed as a woman. Talk about an overdose of make-up! He was 6ft with badly bleached blond hair. "He had shoes that must have been size 11, huge hands - and insisted I call him Sue." The carer said she moved from Cornwall to Blackpool, Lancashire, to start a new life after his op. "I said, 'You won't be showering my mother, sonny boy.'" Blackpool Council said 'Sue' had been a female legally for more than a year. A spokesman added: "It is unlawful for her to be treated in any other way." [11]

Transphobia is very specific and will not be protected by any measure to provide protection on the grounds of sexual orientation alone. In all probability the daughter's transphobia, and what she may or may not have said to her mother, manifested itself as the "incitement to hatred". Transphobia is pervasive within the majority in what became a very public example of incitement to transphobic hatred by its repetition in the press,

By having good law to support them in resisting this kind of incitement, not only employment policies and practices, local authorities are empowered to assist in stamping out this kind of irrational hatred and intolerance. In the event it should be noted, the mother in this article never did make an official complaint.

Also finally of note: Engendered Penalties showed that the suicide attempt rate for trans people is very high, far higher than the rate for one of the most mentally vulnerable groups; people with ongoing mental health problems as a result of childhood abuse or trauma.

According to the evidence in Engendered Penalties, 35% of all trans adults have attempted to commit suicide once as an adult, over 14% have tried it at least twice. We have no idea of how many succeeded.

Respondents who reported attempting suicide, or self harm, because of being a cross dresser, transgender/transsexual or because of other people's reactions to them being trans."

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2024 12:31

Did a judge in the Supreme court just ask if make up was a sex characteristic.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:31

Yep

teawamutu · 26/11/2024 12:32

I can't watch this (working) but I think I am a bit nervous about how it sounds it's going...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/11/2024 12:32

Isn't it a "physiological aspect of sex"? Confused

TeamKenwood · 26/11/2024 12:32

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2024 12:31

Did a judge in the Supreme court just ask if make up was a sex characteristic.

Yes. And I think he was a bit taken aback. As was everyone else I hope!

HarpQuartet · 26/11/2024 12:32

Oh my, did that judge just ask (in all seriousness) whether wearing make up and how you have your hair are physiological sex markers?! I might not have worded what she asked exactly right.

TWETMIRF · 26/11/2024 12:33

Yep! Turns out I am not female as I can't be doing with it. Better let every man on film, tv and stage know that he's a woman as soon as he sits down in make up FFS

WarriorN · 26/11/2024 12:34

This is great to do angry floor scrubbing to.

I hope students of gender studies everywhere are made to listen to/ read this

WarriorN · 26/11/2024 12:35

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2024 12:31

Did a judge in the Supreme court just ask if make up was a sex characteristic.

It's very tell me like I'm 5 isn't it.

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2024 12:35

teawamutu · 26/11/2024 12:32

I can't watch this (working) but I think I am a bit nervous about how it sounds it's going...

One of them just asked if sex and gender weren't interchangeable.

ArabellaScott · 26/11/2024 12:36

HarpQuartet · 26/11/2024 12:32

Oh my, did that judge just ask (in all seriousness) whether wearing make up and how you have your hair are physiological sex markers?! I might not have worded what she asked exactly right.

She did. I'm gobsmacked.

123ZYX · 26/11/2024 12:36

Could it be that she asked to get it into the transcript of the case? Or is that too optimistic?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.