A thank you

[Enoxaparin]

I first found out about mumsnet when I was sixteen. I'd come to terms with being a lesbian by then and like most young lesbians growing up in homophobic environments, I was desperate for community. I spent a lot of time on social media, especially reddit and I was extremely keen to be a good ally to the most oppressed group in my community or so I believed.

From what I'd read on reddit, mumsnet was a den of transphobes and bigots and nazis so rightfully I made a post and left a few scolding comments. It's so ridiculous when I think about it, but I had to use my "cis privilege" for good.

I was rightfully educated by posters on FWR but I wasn't ready I suppose. I spent months browsing the board, growing angrier and gultier as I found myself agreeing with some of the posters. On one occasion, I felt so guilty, I went onto a dating app I was much too young for and matched with a trans identified male person as some sort of penance. I didn't meet up with them though, thankfully.

At the time, my closest friends were two other lesbians both identifying as trans. I couldn't reconcile the image of my funny, shy friends with the news articles posted here so I decided not to believe. I used to lurk on here, trying my hardest to come up with arguments and reasonings against the facts I saw, eventually just giving up because "I won't understand due to my lack of lived experience". I ended up blocking mumsnet from my browser and spent a year identifying as non binary due to what I called "chest dysphoria" but was really me suffering from an ed.

I got into uni for medicine and I think then the walls started to crumble a little. I remember a friend at the time wanted to start testosterone and she seemed to believe it would make her taller and stronger and correct her "wrong puberty" but from my lectures and teachings, I knew that wasn't true. I tried to explain and of course I was met with calls to educate myself. At the time, I remember thinking to myself that if I, as a first year medic was starting to lose faith in the whole changing sex idea, how do actual doctors who've been in education for decades, maintain their belief?

I dismissed my doubts though and joined my uni's lgbt soc that was lgb in name alone. I complained once that there were never any socials for lesbian or gay men, but again I was told to recognise my privilege. At this point, I had genuinely begun to believe I had become transphobic from all my hate reading mumsnet. Very ridiculous, I know. Nevertheless, I had to fix this by interacting with actual trans people like I had been told.

I joined discord groups, read subreddits, watched movies and tv and stopped avoiding uni socials for QTPOC+ in the hopes that I would be a better ally or something. But the more I spent time with them, the more I knew that all those posts I'd read years ago were more true than I was willing to admit. It seemed that everywhere I went was more and more dismissive of the fact that misogyny was real and lesbians were homosexual women. I felt like I was going insane and I had no one to speak to.

Then I saw a tiktok video positing that JKR and many women with unsavory beliefs had lied about their abuse and the repeated harassment of Amber Heard took off. In real life I had people I considered friends saying disgusting things to me under the guise of "queer rights". It seemed the only women with sense left were the so called bigots and nazis and transphobes. It took me a year to stop believing, but I did eventually and thinking back to how deeply I'd fallen in as a child makes me so sad. But I am thankful that I found this website, thankful for the women who are brave enough to speak up and thankful that I just couldn't stay away.

Soz, deleted post, as I see may derail. Quite right too. Although I too am curious as to how questioning can lead one to a conclusion that remains 100% factually untrue... sounds like social pressure cave. And to return to the OP, yes, we know that it is immense, and social pressure is incredibly difficult to go against.

You have misunderstood me. EVERYTHING in life should be questioned and nobody should blindly accept anything they are told. From politics to police to schools to education to News or social media, even the weather should be questioned (hello Michael Fish!).

Now I have explained try re-reading my post and you too will understand what I meant by those who are lost.

It's the creation of silos and tribes and 'others' that is so damaging, I think.

I hope, OP, that you've got or are starting to get a really good, solid, dependable, supportive and helpful community around you.

Actually I'm not even sure about the word 'community' anymore. Another word, like 'inclusive' that has come to give me an uncomfortable feeling, as though being part of one is some kind of prissy obligation or weird sect. Another bloody tribal culty bollockswhang.

So. I hope you have friends, and acquaintances, and family, and people you can rub along with. Glad you're here.

Fantastic post. Interesting to read and to agree/disagree with (mainly the former!).
I too am pleased (usually) by the posts and posters here, compared with most sites.
Gay or straight, we are both women. And THAT is what we need to fight for. Well, OK, in my opinion anyway. Female spaces and female rights.

SORRY if I seem to have invaded your space (!), just describing how I agree with you!

Thank you for taking my post in the spirit it was intended, I feel all soppy now
There's a lot to disagree about, and we often get quite er... robust on FWR and that's grand but Enoxaparin's post was so positive about the value of MN for her that I got a bit 'not in front of the children' about disagreeing so vehemently so soon in the thread..
Good wishes to all.

As you were. Self-appointed head-girl signing off

Thank you for sharing this, OP.

It sounds like it's been a tricky journey to navigate, and presumably still is if you find your views are now at odds with those of some of your friends.

I would like to hope that we can come to a kind of Cass position as a society - Dr Cass clearly believes that everyone has a gender identity (a belief I don't hold) but the mutual ground is that even believers want medical care to be evidence-based.

Obviously that doesn't solve the societal autogynophilia issue but hopefully again, society can reach a position where those that believe we all have a gender identity can co-exist alongside those who don't, without crossing anyone else's boundaries e.g. without (transwo)men identifying in to women's sports and spaces. I appreciate this might upset the autogynophiles but I'm not sure that the desires of someone with a paraphilia should matter when it comes to legislation. Anyway, we're constantly told that autogynophilia doesn't exist, so I guess nobody would be upset? Transwomen could campaign for third spaces or for greater open-mindedness in society for (transwo)men who identify as women to be accepted in men's sports and spaces.

Anyway, more importantly, this thread shows that there are people out there questioning what's happening.
I agree with WarriorN that it really does sound like you'll be an asset to the medical profession, OP.

Good for you, @Enoxaparin!

It takes courage to move away from the herd. Well done on being open-minded and curious enough to do your own research, then reach a conclusion that you may not have originally wanted to believe.

Also, if something doesn't feel right, it's always a good idea to listen to that voice instead of indulging in penance. That voice is there to protect you.

Good luck in your medical studies! I'm sure you'll be a credit to the profession

@Enoxaparin

Thanks for your OP.

Really interesting to read and brave to talk about all the twists and turns that happening when growing up. And expecially the social pressures.

Good to hear that you are now at university and strong enough from what you have learnt to continue your journey.

I am sure you will have sucess - and even if nothing else your OP was so well written ( ) you could have another career!

Thank you so much for heartening post @Enoxaparin . I am sorry it has been such a struggle and no doubt you have lost (and gained!) friends along the way. I know I have.
I do a mystified how medical professionals can have such high levels of what can only be cognitive dissonance.
I wish you all the very best in your studies and life. I am glad you found mumsnet.

what WarriorN said
Thank you for becoming a doctor OP. it makes me happy and relieved to think that thoughtful people like you will be caring for patients in future years.

Please do continue to hang around on FWR @Enoxaparin, if your studies allow that is. You sound like you would have lots of interesting experience and viewpoints to bring to the discussions here. I very much enjoyed reading your OP.

Best of luck with Uni and your career 👍

I do indeed believe that trans women are women, Randy, and I don’t believe there is a change there. They were always women, but this differs from the sex that was assigned to them at birth.

So let's just make it clear. A "trans woman" is any biological male who says that they are a woman, no? Why then did they have a different sex "assigned" than you think they are? Some of these males have held male only positions, fathered multiple children. But "they were always women". How?

This is such a heartfelt, honest post. The important thing is that even against tremendous social pressure, you did finally recognize the truth, because you're intelligent and not a mindless lemming. Kudos to you for that. This is why I often think we should try to be patient with young folks who have been brainwashed by the omnipresence of gender ideology, rather than be combative. It's hard to do when they're throwing slurs like "bigot" and "transphobe" around though. Your post has convinced me to try harder, so thank you for that.
Your post has also confirmed something I have suspected- that gender ideologues can be extremely homophobic, the agenda being to convince people that they aren't gay, but just in the wrong body. Your description of how the T faction dominates LGBT events is as I suspected. Ugh. It's as bad as I feared it was.

Very interesting post Enoxaparin.

The way you write is absorbing.

For lots of us it was perfectly obvious from the get go that it's an ideology beyond reality. But it's also perfectly obvious that others hold the opposite viewpoint.

So thank you for describing so well that dichotomy as it personally unfolded.

having a foot in both camps, as it were, is very useful when it comes to persuading other people. You know where they're coming from, so you can empathise.

I hope you're a frequent visitor here !

OP what a heartening post! The tribalism in student societies was about thirty years ago so that in some ways hasn’t changed, although the uniform worn and the positions held may look different on the surface.

I felt alienated from my then tiny group of rainbow reps for apparently sounding too middle class (an English accent ironically adopted to protect myself from racism). It took a lot of discernment to walk away rather than beat myself up mentally to fit in. Turns out my rainbow tribe were there all along at uni in the faculty, in volunteering and other places. It takes immense courage to step out of line with your peers and hope you will find others who are in agreement or at least in disagreement but can do so peaceably while still valuing your friendship.

Even as an older lesbian I test the waters in new friendships by asking tentatively their opinion on JKR? She is my litmus test and gateway keeper on building a new friendship circle since moving (helpfully she is local so it is not a totally random question to ask). Responses have varied wildly and lots of my friends aren’t massive JKRstans but I just look for a little nuance and self-reflection.

Your periods of self pondering and questioning both sides of the debate while being empathetic to your peers is the most precious sensibility you can take into your career in medicine. Looking for the best outcomes for your patient’s health physically and mentally, learning the histories that bring them to you, while applying scientific method with rigour and gentle candour based on tested knowledge surely is the epitome of helping patients while doing no harm.

I definitely agree with your daughter, I wish the whole thing would just go away because I see so many of my friends choosing to identify out of womanhood to escape their internalised misogyny and homophobia and although I hate that they associate femininity with womanhood, I just feel too sorry for them to fully disengage.
It does get annoying sometimes when they have to project this ideal of femininity unto me so that they can make sense of their own gender identity and we have definitely got into arguments about it. But, I can empathise with them and I guess I still hang around so that they are not so alone like I was when I came to terms with gender identity

Yes, I think especially for lgb young people, it's almost impossible to escape the constant "check your cis privilege" that's so pervasive nowadays, so it soon starts to seem that identifying as some sort of trans would stop you from being the oppressor all the time, or that trying your best to use your privilege for good would somehow redeem you.

Welcome to the nest of vipers @Enoxaparin. We also do hugs 🫂

Wow, it's strange to hear that societies have always been so cliquey, I'm forever hearing that I sound too posh (I'm a first gen immigrant and my parents valued education a lot) or that I'm too boring because I have no interest in drag shows etc. I used to care a lot but now I'm happy being a boring posho.

Testing the waters when making friends is definitely something I find tricky, but that's a good idea to bring up JKR. Even my trans friends don't believe "terfs" are the biggest danger and have empathy for JKR so we can still have discussions but I have been called a "terf" and "white supremacist" (I'm black) for showing her support before. And thank you, I hope that I can learn from this experience and use it to inform my career in medicine.

I hope that I can learn from this experience and use it to inform my career in medicine.

Yes, I think you have an extremely healthy attitude to it, good luck with your future plans!

I think just being you is one of the best and most powerful things you can do. Living your life as a lesbian, wearing what you like, looking how you want. Being happy with yourself as you are. It's the best gift you can give your friends.

Thank you for posting @Enoxaparin It is not coincidence that the hosting of discussion on this subject is on Mumsnet. The majority of mums watch their kids go through the school/education system, often with trepidation. It is hard watching your child having to find friends, navigate the social, educational, organisational aspects of these institutions.

So (most) mums are on the look out for what is happening and how we can support, not just our own kids, but our network. Many believe "it takes a village to raise a child".

For the GC people I know (most are mothers) it has been watching children being lied to about sex that has pushed them into action. Men in women's spaces is a problem and should be called out. But it is the miseducation of children in a way that causes irreversible harm that has prompted many of us to stand up and say no - you don't do this to our nation's kids.

As others have said, never stop questioning, truth is found issue by issue, no one tribe ever has the bigger picture. But on this issue there is truth and there is untruth.

One of the many elephants in the room of the TRA ideology is just how very vulnerable young people are when it comes to cult-like politics. In both Germany in the 1930s and Communist China during the cultural revolution, it was the young acolytes who were the most fervent true believers.

Ideological leaders present young people as a special category of people who are free from the shackles of the old, bad way of thinking. Whilst there is a truth to this, there is a bigger, more important truth: young people generally lack critical thinking, have little objectivity, are emotion-led and are deeply conformist to the rules of their social group.

The enforced ideological requirements of the TRA agenda is exactly the kind of dangerous group-think that society should be protecting young people from. But just as with Germany and China, wold-be political leaders from outside the mainstream of politics exploit the group-think for their own benefit. In fact, they deliberately encourage it.

It's up to the centre-left to protect vulnerable young adults by calling out the bullshit. But too many do not, and rather than aiming their usually critical eye at the TRA claims, they make podcasts and write articles in support for the sake of furthering their careers and avoiding the risk of angering the political loons.

@BigBadaBoom 100% what you said. It is only with hindsight and a bit of age sometimes that one can look at the thoughts of youth and say, ah that's what I thought then because I hadn't had this or that experience.

Many of the GC people now speaking would have stood for "be kind" in our youth, because we wouldn't have necessarily had all the information to understand that trans ideology is not kind, to anyone. And we are the type of people who do stand and support our principles.

This paragraph from BigBadaBoom's post is so spot on:

The enforced ideological requirements of the TRA agenda is exactly the kind of dangerous group-think that society should be protecting young people from. But just as with Germany and China, wold-be political leaders from outside the mainstream of politics exploit the group-think for their own benefit. In fact, they deliberately encourage it.

Thank you so much for this thread. Your post is really insightful @Enoxaparin and a lot of it resonates and I have been on a similar journey (although I was older than you and really should've known better).

I will always be grateful to the posters on here for their patience when I truly believed I was fighting the good fight coming on here with my scolding posts.

It's encouraging to know that are young lesbians out there who aren't completely captured.