Moira Deeming defamation trial - Thread 2 from Australia

[TheSandgroper]

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5167282-in-australia-moira-deeming-defamation-trial-now-on?page=40&reply=138525746

Tribunal Tweets Substack https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/moira-deeming-v-john-pesutto-a-case?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share. Thanks to @BezMills

Thanks to everyone on thread 1. I am pleased it generated such interest and conversations. I have learnt a lot from many very bright women.

That’s Pesutto’s barrister.

I’ve now watched part of the proceedings that I’d missed this morning. The case will go for this week and Tuesday afternoon, Wednesday all day and Thursday all day next week. Next week will be closing arguments. This is subject to Crysanthou being able to arrange childcare for her four children. It’s spring school holidays in NSW for the next fortnight and she obviously has plans with her children next week. Collins said something about he’d had harsh/stern words with his colleague (Crysanthou) about the time that the cross examination of Pesutto was taking and that pissed off the judge. He said it wasn’t the fault of the lawyers. It seemed to me that he was implying that it was Pesutto’s fault but didn’t say it. Collins looked told off, and shut up and sat down.

Afternoon session has started. I assume that it will be more of Pesutto not believing that Deeming was contrite or willing to publicly apologise and condemn. There have been mentions of champagne and celebrating. Crysanthou just asked him if he made up what he believes is the truth of the situation. Not the first time she’s asked him today if he’s lying.

Scrap that: Crysanthou can’t get childcare. They’ve tentatively agreed to 22-25 October for closing submissions.

Pesutto has finished being questioned. Bach, Southwick etc will be questioned from tomorrow. Time pressures on who is questioned when and for how long with return flights booked and upcoming Jewish holidays for Southwick (he’s Jewish).

He's pissing off the judge?

Bloody idiot!

Thank you for the update, he seems like an absolute (add expletive of choice)

Pesutto is a terf now. He’s been seen standing near a woman wearing a LWS shirt and suffragette colours scarf. It was caught on camera. Based on his logic he’s now associated with terfdom.

Pretty sure this is who has been in the public gallery each day wearing various feminist shirts and colours.

https://x.com/Juanita30622990/status/1840703554106839192

Screenshot:

This is the cut and paste for the morning.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1840546235700371609.html

Moira Deeming v John Pesutto, Day 10

#DeemingvPesutto
Because the case has run overtime, it's going to be necessary to find 3 extra sitting days for closing submissions

Hopefully trying to find time next week (8th, 9th and 10th) subject to the barristers' availability
John Pesutto has now returned to the witness box and Chrysanthou SC (SC) is continuing her cross examination
Chrysanthou now asking Pesutto about the press conference he gave on the 20th March 2023

Pesutto said to Mr Pintos Lopez at the time that he needed to give the press conference to inform the public that Deeming had refused to distance herself from neo-Nazis

SC puts to Pesutto that he knew at the time this was not the case, Deeming had not refused to distance herself from neo-Nazis
Pesutto says the purpose of the press conference was to convey the reasons why he was taking the step to move the motion to expel Deeming
In the press conference, Pesutto refers to fact that neo-Nazis attended the LWS Rally & then mentions Moira Deeming

SC asks Pesutto whether he was deliberately intending to link Deeming with the neo-Nazis. Pesutto denies this
In the press conference, a reporter asked him "why didn't you do this earlier, Deeming had expressed her views against the trans community well before the weekend"

Pesutto responds with: "I’ve taken this step now because the events of the weekend showed upon further investigation that the association btw Moira Deeming & the organisers of the rally were that those organisers have shared platforms with fascists, ethno-nationalists, white supremacists and Nazis & it became clear to me on further investigation following the rally and the ugly scenes that were seen on the streets of this
Parliament, but just before it, on the steps of this Parliament were totally unacceptable and that’s why I’ve taken this action now"
SC puts to Pesutto that this was all false, he had not done any investigation when he made this statement

Pesutto denies this
SC:"Did you not spare a thought how your words and accusations would impact my client"

JP: "I was being very careful with my words"

SC: "So did you or did you not spare a thought?"
Pesutto says he was proceeding on the basis of [best interests of] the Liberal Party

SC: "So did you spare a thought or not?"

Pesutto again says it was about protecting the Liberal Party & explaining that to the Victorian people
SC says that Pesutto was causing substantial damage to Moira Deeming's reputation and puts to him that he was intending to cause her reputation serious damage

Pesutto denies this
In the press conference, a journalists asks if Deeming attended the event but the Nazis sympathizers didn’t come, would’ve that been acceptable?

Pesutto doesn't directly answer the question in the press conference
SC now puts to him that if Nazis didn't attend it wouldn't have been a problem

"You sought to conflate my client's conduct in relation to Ms Keen with a connection to the Nazis"

Pesutto denies this
In the press conference, Pesutto also talks about the champagne video & that the problem is Deeming's association w/ Keen and Jones, ppl who "promote Nazi sympathies" & fact Deeming had opportunity to disassociate herself w/ "those very people" & she didn't
SC: "Do you agree that the points you're making there, not only are you seeking to assoc my client w/ the organisers and the Nazis?"

Pesutto claims he was not seeking to associate Deeming with the Nazis
SC puts to Pesutto that at the time of the press conference, Deeming had already disowned and disassociated herself from the Nazis & that his press conference was misleading to say she hadn't

JP says that in the press conference he was referring to Keen & Jones
Pesutto reiterates that his concern was Deeming's association with Kellie Jay-Keen and Angie Jones

"Deeming had worked w/ Ms Keen & Ms Jones to organise this Rally. It was that Rally that provided the opportunity for Nazis to attend"
In the press conference, Pesutto says he has information that "these organisers have shared platforms, done videos with, worked with people who have Nazis views, white supremacist views, totally unacceptable in our state"

SC puts to him that he didn't have any credible (cont)
information to support making such claims

Pesutto: "I did have credible information and believed the information I had was only scratching the surface"
In the press conference, Pesutto says: "any question of an association, even indirectly, with Nazis, white supremacist, ethno-fascists or whatever else is so odious in 2023, as it should be"

SC puts to him that he's saying that Deeming's activities are odious, JP denies this
SC: "Do you agree that it would be wrong to call someone who had unwittingly had such associations, odious?"

Pesutto says it leaves out context of what a person does when confronted w/ such accusations

SC: "You're not answering the question Mr Pesutto"
In the press conference, a reporter asks whether it was possible that Deeming was unaware of the extremists links. JP responds: "I don't think it's open to me to be satisfied that Moira didn't know about their history"
SC: "A truthful answer would've been 'Mrs Deeming told me yesterday she was unaware of those links'

JP believes he gave a truthful answer
Pesutto says he answered the question the way he did was because he didn't want to be committed one way or another

SC: "Well why didn't you just say 'you didn't know'?"

Damn, the sound has cut out in the Court
Sound is back!

In the press conference, Pesutto talks about how easy it was to do a google search & find out that Kellie-Jay Keen had associations w/ people like David Duke former head of the Ku Klux Klan

Pesutto admits he'd misspoken, Keen had no assoc w/ David Duke
SC: "You are intending to represent that my client was prepared to associate w/ ppl she KNEW had associations with fascists & nazis etc"

JP: "That's not correct"

SC: "But that's what you intended to convey"

JP disagrees
SC: "Do you agree that if she had not known of these associations you had no proper basis to move your motion"

JP says the concern was that Deeming wasn't prepared to condemn these people

SC: "The answer you just gave is false"

JP: "It's true, your Honour"
In the press conference, a journalists asks what Moira Deeming said in the Liberal Party meeting & whether she said she knew of Keen's and Jones' associations w/ Nazis

Pesutto responds with: I’m not going to go into the details of the meeting we had. I’m prepared to say (cont)
it was a lengthy meeting, we went through a whole range of issues uh, and I was satisfied on reflection and consideration of all the matters we discussed, that this was the appropriate action to take and I think you can draw the relevant inferences from that"
SC puts to Pesutto that in the press conference he doesn't disclose the details of his meeting with Deeming (where she said she didn't know of their associations) and the reason he didn't disclose them was because "you knew the details weren't of assistance to you"
SC: "You went out of your way to point out to the press that you had information that they could draw inferences about that satisfied you that the motion was appropriate, and you did so in answer to a very direct question about what my client had told you about her (cont)
knowledge of the associations and in putting your answer, you agree that you were seeking to imply that you had information to the effect she DID know about the associations?"

Pesutto says he didn't want to go into the details of the meeting to keep the press conference on topic
SC: “When I ask you a question and you know a truthful answer won’t assist you, you don’t answer it”

Pesutto denies this
SC: "Mr Pesutto, you're treating the questioning here like a press conference. That you can avoid the question and give a prepared answer like in a press conference, aren't you?"

Pesutto: "I don't accept that your Honour"
SC now asking Pesutto about the Champagne Video

"Beyond celebrating the fact that women had spoken at the Rally, most of the discussion was the women's lack of connection or knowledge of the men in black

JP: "There certainly was some discussion of that, yes"
SC puts to Pesutto that in the video that the women in the video said they didn't notice the Nazis until they were being walked out by police, that Deeming criticised the Nazis for performing the salute

Pesutto: "After criticising Victoria Police"
SC: "Are you suggesting it was wrong of my client to raise concerns about the lack of action of police on the day"

Pesutto says his concern was there was a criticism of police by Deeming and not a clear criticism of the Nazis

Pesutto says his principal concern of the champagne video was that Mrs Deeming was advised to distance from the Rally but then went on to participate in that video, which included references that the Rally was effectively a "fun day"

Pesutto says that the comments in the video that the Rally "was fun", "it was a really great day", "can't wait to do it again"..."that's precisely the opposite of what we were seeking from Mrs Deeming"

SC says that at the time of the press conference, Pesutto hadn't provided Moira Deeming a copy of the expulsion dossier. She puts to Pesutto that "by not giving her the dossier in writing before you addressed the press you put her in a position where she couldn't (cont)
adequately respond to the allegations"

Pesutto says there was an urgency for the press conference to explain to the public the reasons why he was putting forth the expulsion motion
The Judge asks why the urgency prevented Pesutto from giving Deeming a copy of the expulsion dossier in writing

Pesutto says it wouldn't have except for the fact the dossier hadn't been finished at the time of the press conference
SC now asking Pesutto about earlier versions of the dossier, information had been removed from the final version sent to MPs

SC: "Deliberate decisions were made that day to remove exculpatory material, isn't that right?"

JP says he doesn't believe the material was exculpatory
(Sorry probably obvious but forgot to add that the press conference is another publication over which Deeming claims Pesutto defamed her)

SC again asking Pesutto about his appearance on Sky News with Peta Credlin. In that interview, Credlin tells Pesutto that says she's done her own research about Kellie Jay Keen and can't find Keen having any association with David Duke, Mark Colletto, Richard Spencer (cont)
contrary to earlier accusations that Pesutto made

Pesutto says he didn't realise he had misspoken

SC: "Having misspoken now 3 x, wouldn't it be appropriate to make a public statement that you'd been wrong about the allegations you made re Ms Keen"
Pesutto says he didn't because he didn't consider it material

SC: "David Duke, Mark Colletto, Richard Spencer...You didn't consider it material that you'd made an error to allege Ms Keen had associations with these people?"
Pesutto says once he realised he'd made an error he never made the accusation again
Pesutto says once the dossier and motion became public it was there for the public to see the accusations against Kellie Jay Keen (i.e there was no mention of David Duke in the dossier)
SC now asking Pesutto about the research that Mr Pintos Lopez did when preparing the expulsion dossier. SC asks Pesutto whether he knew that information used to prepare the dossier came from Wikipedia

JP says he was satisfied the articles linked to in the dossier were correct
SC asks Pesutto whether he watched Andrew Bolt's show on Sky News later that evening which was very critical of Pesutto. Bolt said he'd looked at the Wikipedia material & followed up the references and "it was all wrong"

Pesutto says not aware of Bolt's statements
SC asks Pesutto whether he was aware that his staff were talking to journalists throughout the day about the expulsion dossier

SC shows Pesutto an article from the Age: "Deeming vows to fight move to expel her from party room"

SC puts to Pesutto that he knew when reading the Age article that a copy of the dossier/parts of the dossier had been leaked to the Age and that the most likely source of the leak was Pesutto's team

Pesutto doesn't accept that
In the Age article it refers to Deeming attending "a post rally karaoke night". That exact language came from an earlier draft of the expulsion dossier but there is no reference to this in the final version sent to Deeming

SC: "I want to suggest to you that when you read the Age article that it must've been your staff giving to the press parts of the dossier as it was being drafted throughout the day"

Pesutto: "I don't accept that your Honour"
SC puts to Pesutto that his affidavit is inconsistent w/ this. In his affidavit he says he is confident that his staff didn't leak drafts of the dossier to the Age

Pesutto says he accepts it was very likely they were talking to journalists but doesn't that proposition
SC: "The reason why the dossier was distributed the next morning by your staff was because you wanted it to be published didn't you"

Pesutto said he was lead to understand that the Age had the dossier and it should therefore be distributed to other media.
From 19-27 March, a number of colleagues spoke to Pesutto w/ their concerns about the motion, some of whom said the expulsion motion was too harsh
There was a party room meeting on 21 March. At the time the meeting started, Mr Woff (on Pesutto's instructions) started texting the dossier to every media organisation. SC: "You agree don't you that you didn't tell the Party Room that you'd started to distribute the dossier"
Pesutto accepts this is correct

SC: "You didn't tell my client did you that you intended to distibute the dossier"

Pessutto accepts this
SC puts to Pesutto that the reason why Pesutto said nothing during the Party Room meeting that he intended to distribute the dossier is because he knew it would be opposed

Pesutto disagrees
At this same meeting, Deeming went through the expulsion dossier article by article and explained why each article wasn't true
SC: "At that meeting you knew everything she was saying was true, didn't you"

JP says no

SC asks why Pesutto didn't rebut what Deeming said & says it was b/c it was her turn to speak

SC asks Pesutto about Kim Wells MP, who said to Pesutto that he disagreed with the motion. SC puts to JP that Mr Wells said to JP "if you lose the motion you will have to resign"
Wells also said "relying on Wikipedia [as the basis for the expulsion] is embarrassing"

Pesutto says that his r/ship w/ Mr Wells was "very challenging"
SC asks Pesutto about Mr Luu MP, she puts to him that Mr Luu was promised No. 1 on the Liberal Party ticket if he voted in favour of the expulsion motion.

Pesutto strongly denies this
SC: "Is it true that you threatened Michael O'Brian with dissolution of the Coalition agreement if he didn't vote in favour of the expulsion motion"?

JP denies this. He understood O'Brian was concerned that the Coalition agreement might be affected by the outcome of the vote
Chrysanthou shows Pesutto a spreadsheet which is keeping a running tally of the MPs votes, whether they might vote yes, no, undecided
The question I have is: will Pesutto's cross examination be done by lunch time?
SC: "You knew it would be disastrous for your leadership if the outcome of the motion was not to expel Mrs Deeming?"

Pesutto says it would be disastrous for the Liberal Party if it wasn't. He said his primary driver was not his leadership, it was what was the best for the party

SC: "Do you disagree yes or no it would be disastrous for your leadership if the vote was no"

Pesutto then says words (or speech rather) to the effect of: "It depends what you mean by disastrous. Yes, if the vote had gone badly, i would've lost, but what would be more (cont)
disastrous...I had to decide what am I for, how do I protect the party, these were all factors I had taken into account. I am not denying there would've been serious consequences for my leadership but it would've been a failure of leadership not to act"
SC now shows Pesutto an email from Moira Deeming, titled 'Expulsion Motion'. Deeming asks the party not to proceed w/ the motion & offers to make a public statement to condemn Nazism, & bigotry to the LGBTQIA+ community
SC: "You understood Deeming to be conciliatory in this email"

Pesutto: "She was putting forward a case. But given her comments during the week, it was hard to take this [email] as the condemnation we were looking for"
SC asks Pesutto about this sentence in his affidavit:

"However the email did not contain a condemnation of the organisers of the rally".

SC says Deeming had not only agree to condemn Nazism, but also to condemn bigotry against the LGBTQIA+ community & to work w/ the (cont)
Media dept of the Liberal Party to release a public statement to that effect

SC: "Isn’t that a bit disingenuous of you to suggest that the condemnations she was offering were insufficient?"

Pesutto: "No its not disingenuous"
Well, it seems Pesutto's cross examination will be continuing after lunch

Court adjourned till 2.15pm

That's it for my live-tweeting for today as well

The champagne video will be shown in its entirety in court this week. The judge wasn’t impressed by this. It’s Pesutto’s team who will be showing it. Yes, must make an example of those nasty women celebrating after Nazis showed up.

That's conclusive proof for me. He's appeared on camera with a terf.

Case closed.

it looks like the inevitable has happened. Pesutto is being pressured in resigning ‘to protect the party’.

https://archive.md/ttQ02

Multiple Liberal MPs are set to pressure John Pesutto to stand down and avoid a messy leadership coup

“A Liberal colleague who has until now been regarded as a strong supporter of John Pesutto says “the party has no choice” but to act, with three MPs leading the race to be the next leader.”

And he hasn't denounced that woman appropriately, just the way that the party leadership have declared it has be done before he can ever be believed.

To my mind, Pesutto really has shown that the Liberal Party leadership in Victoria has been acting against the Liberal Party's very first premise:

We Believe:

In the inalienable rights and freedoms of all peoples; and we work towards a lean government that minimises interference in our daily lives; and maximises individual and private sector initiative

and this one

In those most basic freedoms of parliamentary democracy - the freedom of thought, worship, speech and association.

Wouldn't it be funny if MD somehow became leader of the Liberal Party as a result of this? Like the start of Borgen, if anyone's seen it.

I think that at the very least Pesutto has excelled at 'roundaboutation'. According to Susie Dent, that is a 19th century word for bloviating or evasive talk that focuses on everything but the subject in hand.

Thanks @FeralWoman and @Helleofabore for the additional updates and information - it’s all fascinating and very informative.

Pesutto really is tying himself in knots in the witness box. The way he keeps making speeches, instead of answering questions, and addressing the judge, rather than Crysanthou, gives me ‘Kier Starmer being irritated with disobedient/disobliging women’ vibes.

Also, when it comes to the Liberal Party, in his evidence Pesutto comes across as a party leader who seems very much to think ‘L’etat, c’est moi’, so anything he finds challenging or offensive (on a personal level) requires the entirety of the party apparatus to attack it.

I think what has been interesting is that some of the issues that we mentioned back on the first thread have been addressed through in the questions that Sue has asked of Pesutto that some posters had declared were completely irrelevant and unimportant for the case.

And yet.... there they were used by SC to build the case.

Have they finished with Pesutto now?
Who's next up?

Opposition Leader John Pesutto is facing pressure to stand down, as Liberals despair in the fallout from his <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/o/ttQ02/www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/john-pesutto-this-was-my-first-chance-as-leader-to-prove-my-beliefs-about-the-liberal-party-being-inclusive/news-story/4b72f85def3a977a40999b14b02bd272" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">defamation fight with exiled MP Moira Deeming.

“The partyroom is now saying it’s not personal, but it is not tenable. It is not his fault, no one’s blaming him, but at what point do you say this is just not tenable?”

So it's because of the case, which is presumably painting him in a very bad light. But it's also not his fault?

Seems to be a pattern of not blaming him for anything. But blaming Moira Deeming for misbehaving and not saying the exact wording that they told her to say. And that they would believe Nazis and Wikipedia and any activist above any of the women involved. And they would present not all the information in a dossier that they publicly release while declaring the information is complete and irrefutable that a person is what they denounce as false….

It is a shit fight of a testimony.

Personally, I’m glad to see Crysanthou exposing the sexism of this male politician and that of other party members. It’s very much the kind of shining light on the subject that our liberal democracies still need.

Women are still treated badly by socially powerful men who publicly claim to be progressive and against sexism. When push comes to shove, these men show their true attitude towards women is one of OTT retribution for being disobeyed. Some men haven’t come as far from previous generations of men as they think.

Yes he’s finished. Next is Bach, and then Southwick. Two of his inner circle leadership team at the time. Bach is first due to a booked return flight, and then Southwick because of the Jewish holiday Rosh Hashanah 2-4 October. Southwick is Jewish. They’ll both need to be done and finished on Tuesday. Other inner circle people will be later in the week. Probably about 6-8 people in total. Questioning them and then their answers will need to be short and to the point to get through them all this week.

Stopped following this at the end of the last thread. Just come back and I seem to be missing Cassie’s input over the last couple of pages telling us how justified Pesutto has been in his treatment of MD and how badly the case is going for MD….

I got the thread hidden because people were reporting me and I don't want to get banned. Still following the case

I think if it was unfair dismissal it would be easier but I'm still unclear what the defamation was. Will be very interested to read the judgement.

I had a squiz at his uploaded affadavit earlier and he has not had to withdraw anything close to the amount Deeming did, and I think that will be a problem for her.

Good to know you haven’t abandoned Pesutto despite his testimony. I sure he will be pleased.

Why would he care what some randomer on the other side of the world thinks about his testimony?
Are you going to comment on what the defamation is or did you just mention me to snark at me? As if so I'll leave again. No skin off my nose.