Frustrated a female friends cluelessness!

[Tootingbec]

Been with some female friends this weekend - not people I see that often (twice a year maybe) but known them all a very long time. We are all in our early 50’s - some of us with kids, some without.

For the first time ever I suddenly realised how uninterested many other women are in what is going on right now with women’s rights etc and the amount of internalised sexism there is. It started when I said I had watched the dramatisation of the kidnapping of Chloe Ayling in Italy (the woman who wasn’t believed initially). And a couple of women were all “something fishy about her - she didn’t look very traumatised” So I patiently explained about the idea that women who have been raped/attacked should act in a “certain way” has been debunked etc etc. They looked at me like I was nuts (lots of skeptical looks as I was saying it)

Then whole load of “psycho wife/girlfriend comments about some distant mutual friends where to me it was clear the man was a controlling shit and others were like “well I went out with Tom for 2 weeks in 1997 and he wasn’t like that with me and he’s a nice bloke, so his ex wife must have made it all up because remember when we were 26 and they got together she was a nightmare etc etc”

We got on to trans/women’s rights. Didn’t go well. Basically I outed myself - they were completely baffled (I mean literally baffled) as to why I couldn’t just be kind etc etc.

Fuck me it it was depressing. But it was the absolute pilling on of other women that upset me the most. I said I had been getting really interested in women’s rights and been to a few conferences etc - and they laughed in my face about it. No curiosity- just regurgitating of the same old sexist tropes about psycho ex girlfriends and victim blaming.

😵‍💫

I've experienced it all my life so completely understand what you mean.

I recommended The Female Eunuch to a friend once and she said "What's the plot?"

When I was at university I tried to join a feminist group but it was anathema at the time and I couldn't find one (before the internet).

I'm often nonplussed about other women's views on feminism. It often feels like you've been unplugged from the Matrix. The internet was great and feminism became more en vogue recently, which is good.

I tend to treat is as a specialist subject and don't really bring it up; unless of course someone says something anti women.

I can absolutely understand your frustration and despair.
The only consolation however tiny is men are often equally as clueless as to the state of politics and human rights.
Counter intuitively, stupidity and willfull ignorance has never been more rampant than in the era of universally available information at the touch of a button.

Its bizarre and frightening ...the bullying pack mentality of the playground is the embrace of the Zombies.
And with that behaviour, you know they aint friends but empty shirts.

@poppyzbrite4 yes the thing about the Matrix is exactly how I feel! Like have take the blue pill (or red - can’t remember which!) and can finally “see” while all these other women are blissfully ignorant!

But it also left me feeling like some conspiracy nut because they were so baffled by some of what I was saying.

I know. It's especially baffling when you hear women coming out with tropes that have traditionally been used to oppress women.

You are seen as a bit of a nut but the patriarchy wouldn't exist without women. You also have to be mindful of lecturing and ranting, it's easy to get carried away.

Feminists really aren't that common unless of course you're involved in a network or group.

It's exhausting.

Aggressive and oppressing towards women are how I've been described on another thread because I've called out a few women posting mysoginistic crap.

I've noticed a strange trend here of not blaming women for anything, as though women are all victims and have no agency.

I was arguing with one poster who was trying to convince me that men talk about serious things and women just witter. She got very cross with me in the end.

I've been on a few threads arguing that women aren't just a cluster of negative stereotypes. It's incredible really.

Are your friends aware of what's happening in Afghanistan, @Tootingbec , or the French rape trial? Lots of people don't already have a reasonable understanding of female oppression and vulnerability so the trans issue is too much of a leap.

You are seen as a bit of a nut but the patriarchy wouldn't exist without women.

Gilead is propped up by aunt Lydia’s & Serena joy’s

there is also a lot of not my nigelling

i see it at work a lot. Ppl seem unable to distinguish between their personal experience and that of the wider group. They can’t see trends and patterns or join the dots

have to disagree about MN always seeing women as victims with no agency. The women who posted about men not understanding about safety by which she meant male colleagues hadn’t arranged transport for her got her arse handed to her with most posters pointing out it was her responsibility to sort out her own transport or the women posting that she’d been having unprotected sex with her bf of 6 months and was annoyed he didn’t want the baby. As most posters pointed out yes it is unfair that men get to walk away but that’s all the more reason to take responsibility for your own contraception.

have to disagree about MN always seeing women as victims with no agency.

I've seen loads and find it infuriating. Not all posters, obviously.

I feel your pain. I've had two very excruciatingly embarrassing painful excruciating and frustrating encounters with middle aged women.

One was 60 years old, five years older than me, and she swore adamantly that she had never in her entire life seen any evidence that the patriarchy exists. Whilst I was flailing around talking about femicide, domestic violence, she said that women were "just as bad" and murdered husbands too

The second one was a woman who contacted me via direct message on Facebook after she had disliked some terfy stuff I had posted. This woman is in her 50s and lives near me, and we had a very long exchange during which she defended transactivism to the hilt and repeatedly told me that I ought to "be kind" to these "poor marginalised vulnerable" people.

I had no luck in convincing either of them to change their minds.

A picture of Isla Bryson might help.

I think it's sad how many are just the be kind crew. Especially the younger ones.

I dip into these conversations very gently to test the waters. I'm a bit of a coward !

Be kind has lots it's meaning. Especially when it's used pre or post someone having a sweary rant at someone which you often see.

It's as annoying as "I'm not racist but" or "I'm not being unkind but" and them go on to be exactly that!

It's like people use be kind to justify their own nastiness.

I totally understand how you feel, it's so frustrating, I was with a couple of work colleagues talking about the rape case in France, I made a comment about how horrifying there were so many men and got "yes but there's plenty of terrible women too".
A really old friend had been to see an Eddie Izzard gig and was talking about how funny she was 🤦‍♀️

Sorry to hear this. I'm 20 and spend most of my time with my "galmates" who think like I do. But even we sometimes run into women of our age who are clueless as to why we might need to fight for rights.

Maybe we need another acronym.

In addition to NAMALT - WDIT.

Women Do It Too.

Stats are helpful. I had no idea at all before FWR that 99% of sex crimes are.committed by men. It's helpful for understanding to hear that stat, I think.

I think everyone has things that are more or less important in their minds to them. I quite like that we all have different priorities and that we all think “being kind” is something different. Surely the differences is what makes talking with your friend invigorating and satisfying?

Agree that it's important to chat with people with different views. What is find galling in the enormous blind spots that people often base their views.on.

I'm sure we all.do it in various areas, it's just that sexism and women's rights are so important to women's lives that it's surprising how.little awareness there is of basic facts like the stat I quoted above.

Some of this feels like common sense that we have lost or had deliberately eroded.

I think most people are experts in their own experience and some people are interested in other’s experience and some interested in the bigger picture. To some extent the ability to prioritise some things is also very dependent on how privileged you are.

I'm not sure why you are surprised. Many people don't think outside their own experience or interest. I guess they didn't meet up with you for anything more than to have a pleasant time, passing the time of day. Would you have expected more than a passing interest in politics more broadly. Women don't have to share the same interests or views just because they are women.

I’m with you OP.

I can’t understand women who have no understanding of the importance of their rights. And they affect us all - Rape; Domestic Violence; Family Annihilation - any one of us could be a victim.

What are their next 10 words?

If you asked them what proportion of women commit "terrible crimes" relative to men?

Numbers going through criminal justice system?

Over-reporting of female crimes because they're comparatively rare and therefore sensationalist?

Do they have another 10 words beyond their Lifton-esque thought-terminating cliché?

ETA: the above is rhetorical. I share your frustration.

Yes differences are good. My galmates & I don't agree on everything (definitely not when it comes to men!!) but there are fundamental things that you MUST agree on. Like women's rights. We may all have different ways of going about things, and believe in different degrees about how important it is for (e.g .) men not to crit our driving, but we should all agree on the fundamental fact that we are discriminated against!