Caroline Criado Perez on male violence and rape

[ArabellaScott]

https://newsletter.carolinecriadoperez.com/p/invisible-women-not-all-menbut-how

Contains details of the horrific French rape case.

'The second thing we just can’t stop talking about is how many of them there were. In just this one small area of France. What does that mean about how many other men would do this if they had a chance? How many men in our lives? Men who are married. With children, and grandchildren. Who seem like devoted husbands and fathers?

This is the question we women have been asking ourselves in the wake of this story as we look at the men around us. The men we love. The men we know and trust. The men who, unlike us, are not talking about this story unless we bring it up with them.

And to these men, I have a question: why are you not talking about it? Does this story not disturb you as much as it disturbs us? Are you not as horrified as we are to be faced, yet again, with just how many men we’re talking about here? With how they live among us, so well-hidden in plain sight, behind happy suburban marriages? Why are you not talking about this to your male friends? Why are you not talking about this in public? '

I was telling DH about GP yesterday, explaining why it disturbed me so much. I specifically mentioned the bakery, the neighbour, and the men she passed in the street. The men claiming that they thought it was a consensual sex game and yet, somehow, not one of this men, even when alone with her, had cracked a wink, made a comment etc. I don't believe for a moment that they thought it was consensual.

I couldn't encompass the evil of participating in this horrendous abuse. And I talked about how unnerving it was to know how easy it had been for the husband to recruit others to do this. And, how many men had known what was going on but none had reported it.

I got 2 bland sentences back from DH. It's a news story he's not following to him. It's something that reinforces a particularly horrible and unsettling view of the world to me.

Caroline has nailed it. All very well to shake your head and go "how terrible that one town in France must be" but surely it exposes how common and rampant this hatred and entitlement towards women is.

“It's something that reinforces a particularly horrible and unsettling view of the world to me.”

Was this one of his sentences? Or is this your observation. Because if it is the later, I agree.

If it is the former, what does one say to that?

Was this one of his sentences? Or is this your observation. Because if it is the later, I agree.

It was my observation. It's not disturbed him at all or made him think it's something he should discuss with other men. He doesn't begin to grasp how nauseated this story makes me and how much dissonance I have to cultivate to not think of this the next time I'm at a gathering.

A colleague was retrieving a file on his laptop for me the other day so that he could send it to me. I was standing right next to him. The first few letters in the search box brought up a bunch of temp files that indicated he'd been looking at 'milf' porn. It's a BYOD (bring your own device) workplace and his own laptop, I only got a glimpse, and he was obviously horrified and carried on typing so that refined it down to what I was looking for.

I don't know where I'm going with that but in combination with this story, it left me feeling a wretched blend of emotions. I don't want people to bring their whole selves and temp files to the workplace, even if it is their own property. I don't want to be reminded that I don't know what's going on in some colleagues' minds. I know this is absurd.

There was some research conducted by Oxford University, I believe, a few years back when they asked men if they would sexually assault women if they were 100% certain they wouldn't be found out. I have a figure of 10-15% in my head of those who said they would do that.

Does anyone know the research I mean?

I agree with you though.

The horror of this event is too much for me to read about at one sitting. Decades of abuse and she didn’t even know. There is so much at the moment though. The woman whose abuser removed her teeth and lips, the gang rapes. There is just too much to process.

And you are spot on about wondering how to deal with someone who might watch porn.

I thought it was research from an American university? But I may be misremembering.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022

Sorry, a glitch double post.

'31.7% of all men participating in the study would force a woman to have sexual intercourse in such a “consequence-free situation” – which is rape.
Worryingly, most men who indicated that they would commit rape did not even recognise their actions as such.
When explicitly asked whether they would rape a woman if there were no consequences, only 13.6% of participants said they would do so, a marked fall on those who had described that they would commit rape.
“Some men will endorse items asking whether they have used force to obtain intercourse, but will deny having raped a woman,” the study’s authors said.
The authors of the study said the findings of a gap between the proportion of men who would endorse the use of coercion but reject the ‘rape’ label for their actions could have implications for sexual and consent education programmes.'

And it's not absurd to not want to be exposed to inappropriate behaviour in the workplace, it's totally rational. No wonder your colleague was horrified.

This is what popped into my head after reading what @RethinkingLife posted.

I don't know the main male social media sites. I wonder if there's a discussion on, say, Petrolheads, about this story and whether it troubles men.

Do you remember Daniel Sloss' 2019 routine about one of his friends who raped another of his friends? I can't find more than extracts as the whole routine has long gone.

https://www.tiktok.com/@essiedennis/video/7279767885877120289?lang=en

I find it baffling that men (even the “decent” ones) can live with (and profess to love) a woman, and yet absolutely not care about male violence against women, and find it inconvenient and inconsiderate of the women in their lives to mention it to them.

It seems to me that it’s like a person being in a mixed race family and not caring about racial violence, and wanting their family members to stop going on about it. Or having a same-sex oriented child and not caring about or paying attention to homophobic attacks. I just can’t get my head round it.

Vast swathes of men regard women as subhuman. We are "less than". We are dehumanised because it is unthinkable to regard us as "same as".

Men have always used dehumanising language to strip women of their dignity, humanity and autonomy. It's no different to calling us whores, bitches, slags or any other word to slap us down.

Sadly, there are many women (with choice) who continue to support and defend the patriarchy. Men who expect to be waited upon by women have been enabled by the women who serve them. The only way to break the cycle is to say no and stop doing it. God only knows how many generations that's going to take.

One has only to look at the news headlines to see just how much men hate women.

The cry of "Not all men" is all very well but still, there are far too many of them. And we have no way of identifying the ones who pose danger. They walk among us, everywhere.

Decades of abuse and she didn’t even know.

And the horror and evil around this doesn't stop. GP was worried about her memory lapses and other symptoms and was concerned she had Alzheimer's. GP and everyone thought her husband was so supportive of her…Arendt talks about the banality of evil but I can't find this banal. I just wonder how much of the time he was laughing up his sleeve whenever people praised him for how much care and consideration he afforded his wife and how wonderful he was to stick with her and support her so well.

And, given the healthcare system in France, I'm horrified that GP had 4 STIs that were untreated. I'm unclear if they were diagnosed before she learned about what had been happening.

I am feeling overwhelmed by the horror of male violence at the moment, and especially VAWG. Sometimes I don’t know what to do with my rage and sense of helplessness.

Have sent Caroline Criado Perez’s brilliant and troubling article to my OH and asked him to read it sometime this weekend. I told him I want to discuss it with him.

Will report back……

One of the things that stood out for me was that she went to the GP and described her symptoms and he was sitting there beside her. He knew what was wrong with her because he was the one doing it to her.

There are entire porn genres devoted to 'stealth' abuse; and there are forums where men discuss how to abuse women. Why the hell this is tolerated by anyone is beyond me. Its not harmless and its not freedom of speech.

Yes all of this!!

Sadly, there are many women (with choice) who continue to support and defend the patriarchy. Men who expect to be waited upon by women have been enabled by the women who serve them. The only way to break the cycle is to say no and stop doing it. God only knows how many generations that's going to take

there is a thread on AIBU atm about catcalling. I’m boggled at the amount of women who find/found it a compliment and no big deal as if men yelling obscenities at any women they feel like isn’t part of the whole dehumanisation of women. Reduce women to an object, take away any thought of their agency & feelings and suddenly it’s really much easier to be violent to them becatse they’re not really ppl

There are entire porn genres devoted to 'stealth' abuse; and there are forums where men discuss how to abuse women.

I remember a Law & Order episode (S10 E3) involving a group of men who put their wives in an insulin coma to have sex with them*. But, iirc, the wives consented because it was either that or divorce and losing their lifestyles (I saw it a long time ago so may be wrong). iirc, it was a 'Necrophilia with tears' game and there was some grounding in the Sunny von Bülow case.

The whole thing seemed so aberrant, it didn't occur to me it would be restricted to more than a handful of people. What's the saying about the internet uniting us and making it easier for some people to find each other.

*ETA: to be clear, iirc, the husband had sex with his own dead-seeming wife, I don't recall other men being invited.

I have tried to look at my colleagues and apply the stats.

Someone in this meeting has committed rape. Someone here is domestically violent. Someone here watched denigrating porn just last night. Someone here used a prostitute.

It is IMPOSSIBLE!

they are not my family or friends and yet I can't imagine it.
I imagine men find it even more impossible to imagine filth has a beer with them, not just went to a meeting with them.

I'd also stick my fingers in my ears if my sex proved to have predators of this calibre!

Add to that that casual sex needs to be facilitated somehow and it becomes a very emotionally charged topic that they'd take personally.

I do think the good ones need to make the bad ones stand out so I'm not making excuses for them but this is an overwhelming news story.

I tried to talk to my DH about this case and he's said very little except to express disgust at men who do such things.

I'm wondering if there is a collective shame currently silencing men or something else.

I'm wondering if there is a collective shame currently silencing men or something else.

When collective shame and indifference lead to the same silence, it's hard to make the distinction.

I know from time to time there is an AIBU where women see their DP or DH's WhatsApp group exchanges and are horrified at the 'banter' there. Are any men's WApp groups discussing this? If so, how?

I think many men are afraid.

Afraid of women's anger.
Afraid of attracting the opprobrium of other men.
Afraid of speaking up.

I remember the backlash against Gillette when they tried to address men's violence, and while I can understand some of the points made (a corporation moralising), some of that is censure of men speaking up/out on the topic. A 'letting the side down' and 'being a pussy' attitude, that the worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

There is also the very natural defensiveness, that when women want to talk about male violence it appears to cast suspicon on all men. So a lot of it is NAMALT. In fact, I wonder if much of it is that.