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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New DfE guidelines drop 'trans children'

48 replies

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 08:27

https://x.com/justdad7/status/1830740766034969044

Looks like good news.

The 2023 guidelines used 'LGBT', this has now changed to LGB and 'gender questioning' children, in line with Cass.

More guidelines forthcoming.

x.com

https://x.com/justdad7/status/1830740766034969044

OP posts:
GailBlancheViola · 07/09/2024 10:39

kiterunning · 07/09/2024 10:07

A cautiously optimistic start to the weekend.
If the word 'trans' is replaced with 'gender questioning' in schools the attraction for many children could well diminish.

It doesn't have the same cachet so could well do.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/09/2024 10:54

Another one pleased to see this. It also opens the possibility of the very young children with parents who've gaslit them that their bodies are the wrong sex might finally receive some safeguarding from the authorities. It needs to be unacceptable for 4 / 6 / 8 year olds to be seen of as the opposite sex and we're failing these children by not intervening.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/09/2024 11:03

WarriorN · 07/09/2024 09:17

I believe this is based on the guidelines developed by the previous government. So it remains to be seen whether Labour stick with it.

One would hope that if Labour have committed to the Cass review via Wes that the basic tenets remain as stated.

However, Cass is middle lane and appears to acknowledge that true trans does exist. So the questioning guidelines are key to all this. And I expect they will be 'centrist.'

I do hope though that what appears to be a rejection of the nonsense amongst some children continues to grow.

I am very concerned about the home school community. Whilst some have thought that this is a solution (and it may have been in some circumstances) the home school community has been growing increasingly to accommodate autistic children who've been let down by school.

Many of the parents of autistic children are captured by the ideology, though I know many aren't. And they do tend to create networks of support.

Home school networks sometimes turn to group tutors for some subjects. Eg art, especially if there's studio spaces. It's good that Labour have recognised the safeguarding implications of relying on tutors and insist that kcsie is used.

I know that there are alternative provisions that are very trans ally ish for autistic children who aren't accessing school, and who also take home schooled children.

I am concerned that it's very possible for all this to go underground.

Home tutoring has been a safeguarding loophole for many years and so difficult to monitor. It's completely unregulated:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9v87x2x3xwo#:~:text=The%20BBC%20investigation%20has%20found,likely%20to%20be%20an%20underestimate.

Home education has the same loopholes. While knowing that there are some great home educators out there, the lack of regulation and ability to monitor children means that those children who are in abusive situations can go unnoticed for too long. Put home ed plus unregulated home tutors together and there's potential for great harm.

Stock photo of tutor's hand marking work with young girl in background

Call to tighten law enabling sex abusers to work as tutors

Ninety-two tutors have been convicted of child sex abuse in the past 20 years, a BBC investigation finds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9v87x2x3xwo#:~:text=The%20BBC%20investigation%20has%20found,likely%20to%20be%20an%20underestimate.

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 11:04

My DD has just started secondary school, and I've been having a look through some of their policies. Regarding gender identity, it says parents can support their trans child by using their chosen name and pronouns and it has a link to the Mermaids website 😕

Should they be changing their guidance in light of this?

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 11:07

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 11:04

My DD has just started secondary school, and I've been having a look through some of their policies. Regarding gender identity, it says parents can support their trans child by using their chosen name and pronouns and it has a link to the Mermaids website 😕

Should they be changing their guidance in light of this?

Yes.

That is very far from the guidelines, as Cass states 'social transition' is not neutral.

Mermaids is under investigation by the Charity Commission and is a highly partisan and dubious organisation.

OP posts:
biddyboo · 07/09/2024 11:22

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 11:07

Yes.

That is very far from the guidelines, as Cass states 'social transition' is not neutral.

Mermaids is under investigation by the Charity Commission and is a highly partisan and dubious organisation.

Thank you. I'll email them. Any tips on what to say and who to address it to?

BonfireLady · 07/09/2024 11:47

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 11:22

Thank you. I'll email them. Any tips on what to say and who to address it to?

I would send it to the designated safeguarding lead with the Head on copy.

To keep it non-confrontational (this is key IMO but others may feel differently), maybe something like:

"I'm aware that there have been several developments recently in both health and education (started under the previous government and continued under this one) relating to gender questioning children. Specifically in education, there is growing recognition that not everyone believes that we all have a gender identity and that the children who do (and feel that theirs differs from their sex) may be at a wider safeguarding risk where their distress is conflated with autism, an emerging same-sex attraction or other factors. Following the release of the new statutory KCSIE guidance (in particular paragraphs 205 to 209), please can you advise how the school will be updating the [name of policy] policy, where is currently states: [paste in policy wording]"

Edited to include "an emerging same-sex attraction". In my experience from talking to a school, the conflation of LGB and T is very deep-rooted. Many people who conflate the two do so from a well-meaning, supportive place. It's easy to see why they would, given we're constantly told that LGBT is one "thing" and that to say otherwise is "homophobic" and/or "transphobic".

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 12:16

BonfireLady · 07/09/2024 11:47

I would send it to the designated safeguarding lead with the Head on copy.

To keep it non-confrontational (this is key IMO but others may feel differently), maybe something like:

"I'm aware that there have been several developments recently in both health and education (started under the previous government and continued under this one) relating to gender questioning children. Specifically in education, there is growing recognition that not everyone believes that we all have a gender identity and that the children who do (and feel that theirs differs from their sex) may be at a wider safeguarding risk where their distress is conflated with autism, an emerging same-sex attraction or other factors. Following the release of the new statutory KCSIE guidance (in particular paragraphs 205 to 209), please can you advise how the school will be updating the [name of policy] policy, where is currently states: [paste in policy wording]"

Edited to include "an emerging same-sex attraction". In my experience from talking to a school, the conflation of LGB and T is very deep-rooted. Many people who conflate the two do so from a well-meaning, supportive place. It's easy to see why they would, given we're constantly told that LGBT is one "thing" and that to say otherwise is "homophobic" and/or "transphobic".

Edited

Thank you!

MarieDeGournay · 07/09/2024 12:24

Everything is relative, so I allowed myself a very short burst of the Hallelujah Chorus on reading thisSmile
It's definitely progress, and not so long ago that seemed impossible.

BonfireLady · 07/09/2024 12:35

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 12:16

Thank you!

You're welcome.

In case it's not obvious (I've said it directly on other threads but not this one) the phrase "there is growing recognition that not everyone believes that we all have a gender identity" relates to the definition of "gender identity" in the Gender Questioning Children draft guidance document. I don't think this needs to be overtly stated in your opening email but if you get pushback on this particular point, it's worth having it up your sleeve. For example, if they say it's too difficult a subject to tackle and there isn't adequate guidance beyond the statutory KCSIE update, you could gently nudge them to the paragraph above 205 which references the Gender Questioning Children draft guidance. In the absence of anything else, the linking of this document in its current draft state is important.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/09/2024 12:44

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 11:22

Thank you. I'll email them. Any tips on what to say and who to address it to?

Just a little addition to the good advice you've already had. You need to address your complaint to the Head and cc the safeguarding lead. The Head (and Governors) are responsible for all policy (even if the DSL has written it after a Stonewall session). The Head needs to know about parental complaints and also the new guidance about KCSIE. While they will likely delegate responding to the DSL, the pastoral deputy or whoever, it will not only generate a discussion at leadership level but will alert the Head to policy changes that they know a school must be aware of.

FrothyCothy · 07/09/2024 12:46

It’s a shame so much of the LGB (T) section in the guidance seems to be given over to the T and not the LGB. Maybe a sign that LGB children require less support these days (I’d like to hope) but I’m sure there is still a ways to go in LGB children feeling comfortable to come out to their family, teachers and peers and some will still face the prospect of violence or being ostracised. There seems to be little said about that (but I need to read the whole thing).

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 07/09/2024 14:08

This is good news and a huge improvement on the ideological belief statement that is "trans children". Personally I would prefer to avoid the "gender" word altogether and call it something like "distressed about their sex", which makes it clear that the solution is to address the feelings of distress, as sex can't be changed (this also seems to fit much better the group who used to present with these issues, before social contagion etc. kicked in); but this is still a significant step in the right direction.

Heylo · 07/09/2024 15:01

Wonderful news.

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 15:08

Can I ask what it means when it says it is under review? Does that mean schools don't have a duty to update their guidance whilst this is going on? Or will some schools use this as a loophole?

BonfireLady · 07/09/2024 15:48

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 15:08

Can I ask what it means when it says it is under review? Does that mean schools don't have a duty to update their guidance whilst this is going on? Or will some schools use this as a loophole?

I suspect that nobody really knows 🤦‍♀️

However, it's still positive that the Gender Questioning Children guidance document is referenced in the new statutory KCSIE guidance. It provides a way to refer to it, even though it is still only in draft form (and would have been non-statutory anyway, even if the Tories had released it as final when they were still in government).

In other words, I think schools would find it difficult to argue that they can't implement the statutory KCSIE guidance until this has been closed off and updated. The KCSIE guidance is effective from 1st September this year in exactly the way that it has been written. It's just that change may follow.

biddyboo · 07/09/2024 16:08

BonfireLady · 07/09/2024 15:48

I suspect that nobody really knows 🤦‍♀️

However, it's still positive that the Gender Questioning Children guidance document is referenced in the new statutory KCSIE guidance. It provides a way to refer to it, even though it is still only in draft form (and would have been non-statutory anyway, even if the Tories had released it as final when they were still in government).

In other words, I think schools would find it difficult to argue that they can't implement the statutory KCSIE guidance until this has been closed off and updated. The KCSIE guidance is effective from 1st September this year in exactly the way that it has been written. It's just that change may follow.

Edited

That is good to know, thank you. I'm going to email the school this weekend, and was wondering whether they might use the fact that it's under review to justify not updating their guidance. The policy at the moment seems to be straight from Mermaid's website, along with a link to the website for further information. I wonder if they know that Mermaids is being investigated by the Charity Commission. Well, I'll see what they come back with.

BonfireLady · 07/09/2024 16:13

⬆️ Sorry, my comment is probably worded badly.

There are no legal certainties in this mess for schools. Even the Gender Questioning Children guidance didn't help schools to know who (school or the government) would be liable if the parents of a currently gender questioning child subsequently sue the school for undertaking social transition, if that child later detransitions.

Given the lack of certainty, if I were a school I would change all my relevant policies to match the new statutory KCSIE guidance, provide a link within each policy to the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance and state the school policy is subject to change after the government finalises the Gender Questioning Children guidance. If they use the "loophole" that the KCSIE guidance is not yet final they could be exposing themselves to risk.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2024 16:26

Fab.

This is important. Language matters.

It frames everything.

Also is this where we get the activists having a hissy fit about how the use of language matters and if you erase the word trans then you erase trans people without a hint of self reflection?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/09/2024 17:11

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2024 16:26

Fab.

This is important. Language matters.

It frames everything.

Also is this where we get the activists having a hissy fit about how the use of language matters and if you erase the word trans then you erase trans people without a hint of self reflection?

Indeed. And they will talk about trans folx /people/ etc without a hint of insight or self awareness while the rest of us (and the guidance) are discussing children

IwantToRetire · 07/09/2024 20:33

LGB Alliance have been commenting on this both FB and X:

We have been making the case to Government that the aggregate term LGBT should be dropped. We are delighted the DfE has acknowledged that sexual orientation and gender identity should not be conflated. We look forward to other departments following suit.
https://x.com/AllianceLGB/status/1832419175148421491

and referencing Page 55 of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66d7301b9084b18b95709f75/Keeping_children_safe_in_education_2024.pdf

Which based on the content of that one page seem a bit over optimistic!

x.com

https://x.com/AllianceLGB/status/1832419175148421491

Xiaoxiong · 06/12/2024 12:11

Just reviving this thread as I was checking our school PSHE and RSE policies to see if they'd been revised (spent all last year pushing for this, and appear to have succeeded!)

However, our Safeguarding Policy still refers to "gay, bi and trans children" and "LGBT children" so have fired off an email to the DSL helpfully pointing out that neither of these phrases is in line with the new statutory guidance. It is now "gender-questioning" instead of "trans" and "LGBT" has been dropped entirely in relation to children.

It's definitely worth checking your school policies and pushing for revisions to bring them in line with the new version of KCSIE released in Sept 2024.

BonfireLady · 06/12/2024 18:30

Xiaoxiong · 06/12/2024 12:11

Just reviving this thread as I was checking our school PSHE and RSE policies to see if they'd been revised (spent all last year pushing for this, and appear to have succeeded!)

However, our Safeguarding Policy still refers to "gay, bi and trans children" and "LGBT children" so have fired off an email to the DSL helpfully pointing out that neither of these phrases is in line with the new statutory guidance. It is now "gender-questioning" instead of "trans" and "LGBT" has been dropped entirely in relation to children.

It's definitely worth checking your school policies and pushing for revisions to bring them in line with the new version of KCSIE released in Sept 2024.

Good to give this a bump.

Yes, I wrote to my children's school in September on the same basis. The conversation remains ongoing....

In addition to the safeguarding policy, one other thing I ask about was how it would impact things on a practical basis e.g. how would the school's LGBT club be reshaped so that it didn't conflate LGB with children who might be gender questioning? For any schools that have these clubs, that's a key one. If they conflate the two, they are introducing safeguarding risks which go against KCSIE guidance.

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