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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What Am I Missing?

219 replies

Catiette · 05/09/2024 17:58

I may not be able to check in on responses to this very much - I hope that isn't hypocritical or rude. I read something that left me feeling a bit unsettled and just wanted to formulate my thoughts on it, really. Any responses - whether to agree with me or to highlight where I'm going wrong - would both be helpful and reassuring whenever I can return!

It relates to the article posted on the "Which Stories Could Change Someone's Mind" thread: https://philosophersmag.com/the-transgender-rights-issue/. I didn't want to derail that discussion, and also really don't want to discourage people from using it as one of the best representations of our position I've seen - so thorough, lucid and convincing... up to a very few paragraphs near the end, which I didn't think reflected the nuanced thought of the whole. It left me wondering what I'd missed?

I'll try not to be too wordy (famous last words...)

The Transgender-Rights Issue - The Philosophers' Magazine

Gary L. Francione on transgender-rights, equality claims, belief claims, and liberal pluralism.

https://philosophersmag.com/the-transgender-rights-issue

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 10:28

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/09/2024 09:57

c'mon. 3 things

  1. women have tits. men don't. if a man's got tits you're already in uncanny valley

  2. chicken fillets are intended to increase a woman's sexual attractiveness. I cannot think of another reason for wearing them. chicken fillets on a woman are discreet. chicken fillets on a man are not. indiscreet displays of sexuality are offensive

  3. what people do is more important than what they think or say. I can't stop men thinking creepy things, but i'd sure like to be able to stop them doing creepy things at work (and for the avoidance of doubt, a man wearing chicken fillets to work is creepy)

Edited

Yeah I agree with all that.
I think that's why his line "believe, live, and present how they want as long as they don’t harm others or expect the rest of us to join in" is so important.

Lots of men are creepy and do creepy things every day. Creepy man wearing creepy fake boobs is another example of that.

I think focusing on that element is treating the symptoms. Creepy man will still be creepy, we just won't as explicitly see it.

I'd prefer (probs overromanticised) to treat the causes and not give the creepy man any more attention than I have to.

Catiette · 07/09/2024 10:52

How one defines “harm” and “involving others” is key. I could imagine the argument being made in the ‘70s that a bit of naughty office banter between the lads, made in the presence of the single female worker, wasn’t “harmful” and didn’t “involve her”. But we’ve reached the point, now, where we recognise it could be, and it does. It was subjecting her to a particular construction of who, and what, a woman is, in their eyes, that she could find demeaning or intimidating. Of course, I’m not saying that a transwoman colleague in the office, in the traditional sense of the transsexual, is remotely equivalent to this! But some other male manifestations of a trans identity that we’ve seen embraced in the workplace, those with overtly sexualised clothing, arguably have a similar effect.

It’s fascinating that, in the last half-century, we’ve come a long way towards addressing verbal re-/de-constructions of women by men in a professional context (”That comment was totally inappropriate, HR will have to have a word!”), while simultaneously becoming more likely than before to embrace physical re-/de-constructions of it like the offensively top-heavy Canadian(?) teacher.

I think it’s also honest and fair to acknowledge that, for some women, including among the most liberal-minded, LGBT-supporting demographic, even a more understated, conventional presentation by a male as female can feel a little unsettling at first. It is, after all, in a sense, another, different appropriation of their sense of self; a manifestation of what that man, in part, understands a woman to be, and with an emphasis on the physical as a necessary signifier. For women with inescapable “lived experience” of a society still filled with with reductive representations of their bodies - and representations of woman-as-body (and the physical vulnerability inherent in these sexualised bodies, that a man cannot fully experience) that can take some getting used to. I think that used to be accepted without question - just as the office banter did.

Interesting…

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 11:31

Didn’t the term ‘ultra’ come about because of the division around use of pronouns?

And if that is the case, then yes, the positioning of refusing to use someone’s preferred words as so extreme that people should be shamed by being labeled as ‘ultra’ is derogatory. It is not an extreme position to have. It should not even be controversial.

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 11:42

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 11:31

Didn’t the term ‘ultra’ come about because of the division around use of pronouns?

And if that is the case, then yes, the positioning of refusing to use someone’s preferred words as so extreme that people should be shamed by being labeled as ‘ultra’ is derogatory. It is not an extreme position to have. It should not even be controversial.

We are talking about an article where the author clearly defines his terms so it's not fully relevant and has the potential to derail the discussion.
I'm happy to use whatever term you prefer for the group he describes

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 11:51

Catiette · 07/09/2024 10:52

How one defines “harm” and “involving others” is key. I could imagine the argument being made in the ‘70s that a bit of naughty office banter between the lads, made in the presence of the single female worker, wasn’t “harmful” and didn’t “involve her”. But we’ve reached the point, now, where we recognise it could be, and it does. It was subjecting her to a particular construction of who, and what, a woman is, in their eyes, that she could find demeaning or intimidating. Of course, I’m not saying that a transwoman colleague in the office, in the traditional sense of the transsexual, is remotely equivalent to this! But some other male manifestations of a trans identity that we’ve seen embraced in the workplace, those with overtly sexualised clothing, arguably have a similar effect.

It’s fascinating that, in the last half-century, we’ve come a long way towards addressing verbal re-/de-constructions of women by men in a professional context (”That comment was totally inappropriate, HR will have to have a word!”), while simultaneously becoming more likely than before to embrace physical re-/de-constructions of it like the offensively top-heavy Canadian(?) teacher.

I think it’s also honest and fair to acknowledge that, for some women, including among the most liberal-minded, LGBT-supporting demographic, even a more understated, conventional presentation by a male as female can feel a little unsettling at first. It is, after all, in a sense, another, different appropriation of their sense of self; a manifestation of what that man, in part, understands a woman to be, and with an emphasis on the physical as a necessary signifier. For women with inescapable “lived experience” of a society still filled with with reductive representations of their bodies - and representations of woman-as-body (and the physical vulnerability inherent in these sexualised bodies, that a man cannot fully experience) that can take some getting used to. I think that used to be accepted without question - just as the office banter did.

Interesting…

Edited

Yeah that is an interesting take on it and I can see what you mean and agree.

Conversely, if you prohibit the man from wearing fake boobs because it makes women uncomfortable, what's to stop men in the office policing womens clothes because a low cut top makes them uncomfortable? And is that OK? I've heard men talk about clothes being worn by professional women who are more voluptuous in those terms.

I think the answer is a dress code that applies to all. But even that is difficult e.g.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/25/black-pupils-excluded-hair-discrimination-equality-act

Black pupils are being wrongly excluded over their hair. I’m trying to end this discrimination | Emma Dabiri

Across the UK, cases of black children being punished for their hairstyles have escalated. I want to amend the Equality Act, says Emma Dabiri, author of Don’t Touch My Hair

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/25/black-pupils-excluded-hair-discrimination-equality-act

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 12:04

A working assumption of this essay has been that those of us who are gender-critical value a liberal, pluralistic society, and are happy for people to believe, live, and present how they want as long as they don’t harm others or expect the rest of us to join in. It must be noted that some who reject transgender ideology and who consider themselves to be stalwart gender-critical types very explicitly reject this. Some members of this group refer to themselves as “Ultras” but some get very angry if you refer to them as “Ultras.” However they characterize themselves, they maintain that, even in the absence of any requirement that the rest of us believe in/act on transgender ideology, when males present with stereotypically feminine dress, wigs, makeup, breast prosthetics, etc., they engage in conduct that must be excoriated because that behavior necessarily represents an expression of contempt for or mockery of women.

He uses the term. So, either he isn’t aware of the background and has not bothered to find out more, which is odd considering he mentions that some people object to being called this, or he is misusing the term.

It is a derogatory term and you, Cassie, have been in those discussions. Just because this person uses the term and defined his use of it doesn’t change what its origins are.

And discussion of this is relevant. Because it also is part of the wider discussion about how this person views it. So, it is not derailing to discuss the purpose and the user of that term at all. It shows part of the wider picture.

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 12:07

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 12:04

A working assumption of this essay has been that those of us who are gender-critical value a liberal, pluralistic society, and are happy for people to believe, live, and present how they want as long as they don’t harm others or expect the rest of us to join in. It must be noted that some who reject transgender ideology and who consider themselves to be stalwart gender-critical types very explicitly reject this. Some members of this group refer to themselves as “Ultras” but some get very angry if you refer to them as “Ultras.” However they characterize themselves, they maintain that, even in the absence of any requirement that the rest of us believe in/act on transgender ideology, when males present with stereotypically feminine dress, wigs, makeup, breast prosthetics, etc., they engage in conduct that must be excoriated because that behavior necessarily represents an expression of contempt for or mockery of women.

He uses the term. So, either he isn’t aware of the background and has not bothered to find out more, which is odd considering he mentions that some people object to being called this, or he is misusing the term.

It is a derogatory term and you, Cassie, have been in those discussions. Just because this person uses the term and defined his use of it doesn’t change what its origins are.

And discussion of this is relevant. Because it also is part of the wider discussion about how this person views it. So, it is not derailing to discuss the purpose and the user of that term at all. It shows part of the wider picture.

I'm not engaging in this. I'd rather discuss the nuance of the essay.

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 12:16

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 07/09/2024 09:57

c'mon. 3 things

  1. women have tits. men don't. if a man's got tits you're already in uncanny valley

  2. chicken fillets are intended to increase a woman's sexual attractiveness. I cannot think of another reason for wearing them. chicken fillets on a woman are discreet. chicken fillets on a man are not. indiscreet displays of sexuality are offensive

  3. what people do is more important than what they think or say. I can't stop men thinking creepy things, but i'd sure like to be able to stop them doing creepy things at work (and for the avoidance of doubt, a man wearing chicken fillets to work is creepy)

Edited

Padded bras are not 'chicken fillets' though.

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 12:24

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 12:07

I'm not engaging in this. I'd rather discuss the nuance of the essay.

That is your choice.

However, it is pertinent to the discussion, it is part of the article. And as far as I are concerned, it is an issue to be discussed as it forms part of this writer's position.

Gary doesn't get to redefine the term and use it how he wishes and nor does anyone else who chooses to use the term.

You can discuss whatever you want.

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 12:26

ArabellaScott · 07/09/2024 12:16

Padded bras are not 'chicken fillets' though.

And this whole discussion of 'chicken fillets' also misses a segment of women who might be wearing prosthetic breasts after reconstruction.

Catiette · 07/09/2024 12:27

I do feel like it (the “ultra-“ designation) is potentially relevant to a discussion that focuses on critiquing the last past of the essay as lacking nuance…

Just googled “ultra-“, and the first results to come up referred to “extremist” and “beyond the norm”.

It does feel rather loaded…

OP posts:
Catiette · 07/09/2024 12:28

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 12:26

And this whole discussion of 'chicken fillets' also misses a segment of women who might be wearing prosthetic breasts after reconstruction.

Good point.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 12:46

Catiette · 07/09/2024 12:27

I do feel like it (the “ultra-“ designation) is potentially relevant to a discussion that focuses on critiquing the last past of the essay as lacking nuance…

Just googled “ultra-“, and the first results to come up referred to “extremist” and “beyond the norm”.

It does feel rather loaded…

Edited

Yeah. I don't disagree. However we need to use some term if we want to be able to discuss the views the author outlines in the essay. Personally I don't care what term it is. My experience to date has been one of being unable to discuss whether 1) such a group of views exists and 2) where they are different to other groups of GC views,because people fixate on the term "ultra" and whether it's offensive.

I like the essay because there's points I there to work with and discuss, outside whether or not "ultra" is the right term to use.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 07/09/2024 12:49

The last part of the essay is a mess, not just because he introduces the mysterious ultras, but also because he underhandedly attacks 'them' by shifting between two different meanings of 'gender critical' without saying so.

Meaning One (Forstater Judgment) = sex is binary, immutable, and meaningful.

Meaning Two = sceptical of imposed cultural sex norms.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 07/09/2024 12:53

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 12:46

Yeah. I don't disagree. However we need to use some term if we want to be able to discuss the views the author outlines in the essay. Personally I don't care what term it is. My experience to date has been one of being unable to discuss whether 1) such a group of views exists and 2) where they are different to other groups of GC views,because people fixate on the term "ultra" and whether it's offensive.

I like the essay because there's points I there to work with and discuss, outside whether or not "ultra" is the right term to use.

Edited

My experience to date has been one of being unable to discuss whether 1) such a group of views exists and 2) where they are different to other groups of GC views,because people fixate on the term "ultra" and whether it's offensive.

I started a thread about this (basically asking what so called ultras want that's different from what the rest of us want). I'd be interested in your views, as I know you've thought about this a lot.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/09/2024 13:02

I know there is an argument to be made about "performing fetish"

For me it's a form of sexual harassment which contributes to a hostile environment for women and girls.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/09/2024 13:42

However we need to use some term if we want to be able to discuss the views the author outlines in the essay

False. We need to discuss each view that he outlines as a separate point. Lumping them all together and then labelling the people who hold some of those views (but often not all of them) is a highway to straw man arguments.

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 14:15

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/09/2024 13:42

However we need to use some term if we want to be able to discuss the views the author outlines in the essay

False. We need to discuss each view that he outlines as a separate point. Lumping them all together and then labelling the people who hold some of those views (but often not all of them) is a highway to straw man arguments.

Yeah. I never understood the need to attempt to label sub groups. Because there i am not sure there are distinct sub-groups.

As you say Amaryllis, there are differing views on a range of the issues. Him introducing it seems to be lump everyone together. And it perpetuates the division.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/09/2024 14:32

Conversely, if you prohibit the man from wearing fake boobs because it makes women uncomfortable, what's to stop men in the office policing womens clothes because a low cut top makes them uncomfortable?

The word "uncomfortable" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. It's a very vague word. Women often use it to minimise much stronger feelings that they are afraid to express - anything from disapproval or disgust to feeling afraid or insulted. And "uncomfortable" is not a word men use much at all.

The kind of "discomfort" a man might feel seeing a woman in a low-cut top - which could mean "embarrassment" or "disapproval" but perhaps means "arousal" - is not likely to be the same "discomfort" as a woman might feel around a man wearing fake breasts.

So what you need to do is to unpack that word "uncomfortable" and decide which real feelings are likely in which situations, and then you'll probably find the answers.

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 17:14

theilltemperedclavecinist · 07/09/2024 12:53

My experience to date has been one of being unable to discuss whether 1) such a group of views exists and 2) where they are different to other groups of GC views,because people fixate on the term "ultra" and whether it's offensive.

I started a thread about this (basically asking what so called ultras want that's different from what the rest of us want). I'd be interested in your views, as I know you've thought about this a lot.

Can you link it for me please and I will ccomment Smile

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 17:21

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/09/2024 14:32

Conversely, if you prohibit the man from wearing fake boobs because it makes women uncomfortable, what's to stop men in the office policing womens clothes because a low cut top makes them uncomfortable?

The word "uncomfortable" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. It's a very vague word. Women often use it to minimise much stronger feelings that they are afraid to express - anything from disapproval or disgust to feeling afraid or insulted. And "uncomfortable" is not a word men use much at all.

The kind of "discomfort" a man might feel seeing a woman in a low-cut top - which could mean "embarrassment" or "disapproval" but perhaps means "arousal" - is not likely to be the same "discomfort" as a woman might feel around a man wearing fake breasts.

So what you need to do is to unpack that word "uncomfortable" and decide which real feelings are likely in which situations, and then you'll probably find the answers.

In a work context, how would you write an policy that says in effect "men can't wear padded bras and low cut tops because it makes women feel like they are being exposed to a sexual fetish. Women can wear padded bras and low cut tops because men finding it arousing is their problem to deal with, they aren't children".

I don't think its possible, without directly discriminating against men. Which then goes back to the authors first point about "equality claims" vs "belief claims".

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 17:31

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/09/2024 13:42

However we need to use some term if we want to be able to discuss the views the author outlines in the essay

False. We need to discuss each view that he outlines as a separate point. Lumping them all together and then labelling the people who hold some of those views (but often not all of them) is a highway to straw man arguments.

Fair point - I'd argue he's using short hand rather than "lumping" but I'm more than happy to discuss the substantive point.

when males present with stereotypically feminine dress, wigs, makeup, breast prosthetics, etc., they engage in conduct that must be excoriated because that behavior necessarily represents an expression of contempt for or mockery of women.

My train of logic would be:

  1. is this statement representative e.g. do some people believe males presenting in a feminine way should be excoriated because they are mocking women? (My answer is yes - I've seen people behaving like that and expressing those views)

  2. If yes, is that a problem? (For me it is, because I agree with his liberal line, "happy for people to believe, live, and present how they want as long as they don’t harm others or expect the rest of us to join in". For others it may not be. That's where this is philosophy not science - that's a matter of opinion)

It's quite useful to tease out opinions and start to show where some of the infighting in the GC movement is originating from and why.

LoobiJee · 07/09/2024 17:39

Helleofabore · 07/09/2024 11:31

Didn’t the term ‘ultra’ come about because of the division around use of pronouns?

And if that is the case, then yes, the positioning of refusing to use someone’s preferred words as so extreme that people should be shamed by being labeled as ‘ultra’ is derogatory. It is not an extreme position to have. It should not even be controversial.

Yes, Janice Turner responded to criticism of her article on Debbie Hayton by referring to her critics as “ultras” on Twitter.

Predictably, individuals who are opposed to women’s right to the privacy and dignity of single sex spaces made the most of the opportunity to use the dispute for their own ends. And continue to attempt to do so.

CassieMaddox · 07/09/2024 17:44

Thanks - I took a few weeks off because the constant fighting was getting to me! I'll have a look now