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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What Am I Missing?

219 replies

Catiette · 05/09/2024 17:58

I may not be able to check in on responses to this very much - I hope that isn't hypocritical or rude. I read something that left me feeling a bit unsettled and just wanted to formulate my thoughts on it, really. Any responses - whether to agree with me or to highlight where I'm going wrong - would both be helpful and reassuring whenever I can return!

It relates to the article posted on the "Which Stories Could Change Someone's Mind" thread: https://philosophersmag.com/the-transgender-rights-issue/. I didn't want to derail that discussion, and also really don't want to discourage people from using it as one of the best representations of our position I've seen - so thorough, lucid and convincing... up to a very few paragraphs near the end, which I didn't think reflected the nuanced thought of the whole. It left me wondering what I'd missed?

I'll try not to be too wordy (famous last words...)

The Transgender-Rights Issue - The Philosophers' Magazine

Gary L. Francione on transgender-rights, equality claims, belief claims, and liberal pluralism.

https://philosophersmag.com/the-transgender-rights-issue

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MoveToParis · 05/09/2024 21:57

What I find interesting was that he was prepared to let Maya Forstater, Kathleen Stock or anyone write their own views with his input. So normal in his misogyny.

I also think his sneaky inclusion of the conclusion at the start of this paragraph. Notice how he tells us that seeing AGP is illiberal, (code to his audience for bad) but doesn’t actually deny that it’s a fetish that women get forced to participate in.

Those who promote the illiberal view also maintain that males who present as women are engaged in a public display of autogynephilia (AGP), a fetish involving a male being sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female, and, in effect, force the participation of women in this fetish.

There are multiple examples of this through the article.

annejumps · 05/09/2024 22:07

TempestTost · 05/09/2024 21:47

Mown reading is that he's describing the position as he sees it and where it goes wrong in his opnion.

I would also say that if his understanding was correct his critique wouldn't be that far out. He's not being particularly illogical.

What he misses is that it's not about a particular set of norms being inherently and eternally womanish. It's about the fact that the attempt is not really about the particular clothing, it's about adopting whatever the conventional sexed form of femininity is and claiming that is what it is to be a woman.

I think it's a common gap a lot of people don't understand. It seems to me it related to a somewhat flat or unsophisticated understanding of the way our physical sexed bodies have a cultural expression. These guys aren't wearing dresses because they like dresses, but because they want to "be" women. If women and men dressed alike they would still be wearing falsies under their sweatshirts or whatever.

The mistake from people like this comes out of the assumption that clothing differences themselves represent some kind of externalized patriarchal oppression that could be done away with if only we understood that.

Right exactly. The specific clothes are almost a red herring.

Catiette · 05/09/2024 22:09

Agree.

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ArabellaScott · 05/09/2024 22:17

It's the appropriation of womanhood that I object to, not the appropriation of 'femininity'. They can have femininity if they want it - the point is that they are using femininity as a tool to try to claim 'woman'.

It's fetishising femininity. Which effectively fetishises women, because the signifier and the signified are so often confused.

A man says that 'being a woman' consists of wearing lipstick/frocks/tits - that is reducing women to those superficial signifiers.

No man knows what it is to be a woman. It's fucking offensive to suggest that he does.

annejumps · 05/09/2024 22:25

It's like what I've seen said, if women started calling themselves something else (bleebs, blorbs, whatever) instead of "women" if TIMs successfully started calling themselves "women," the TIMs would then want to be called by that word too.

annejumps · 05/09/2024 22:26

ArabellaScott · 05/09/2024 22:17

It's the appropriation of womanhood that I object to, not the appropriation of 'femininity'. They can have femininity if they want it - the point is that they are using femininity as a tool to try to claim 'woman'.

It's fetishising femininity. Which effectively fetishises women, because the signifier and the signified are so often confused.

A man says that 'being a woman' consists of wearing lipstick/frocks/tits - that is reducing women to those superficial signifiers.

No man knows what it is to be a woman. It's fucking offensive to suggest that he does.

Yes! They're conflating "femininity" with "female." Funny how extremely common that is!

CassieMaddox · 05/09/2024 22:58

Catiette · 05/09/2024 20:56

@CassieMaddox And OK, for some women, there will be a proprietary attitude towards "feminine" signifiers. But for many of us, the concern is, rather, the appropriation of our language, spaces, bodies through those signifiers. They're an outward manifestation of what's being demanded/taken. He doesn't seem to make that distinction.

I also think perceptions of the "appropriation" of womanhood through drag & trans identity are complicated by the historic power imbalance between men and women, and long-established use of feminine signifiers to disempower and demean women, and ridicule and emasculate men. Carnivalesque costumes, boy-actors, misogynistic drag act stage-names... men "playing" women has a long history in which the common denominator is the power imbalance and an implicit or explicit demonstration of relative male power. It's certainly not aspirational: it's more often ridiculed. And yes, you could say that this is an argument for normalising it - but also, it should be an argument for empathising with women having an understandable, instinctive sensitivity to it: an inevitable anticipation of it being more teasing than tribute.

There were a few recent threads here or on AIBU about make-up with some interesting discussion about whether it's a weapon of, or against, the patriarchy - demeaning or empowering (OK, reductive, but...) I do think one thing it showed is how impossibly hard it is to separate ourselves from the cultural waters in which we swim. If you live and breathe make-up-as-normal, how can you possibly make that assessment for yourself, never mind in general terms?

He doesn't seem to make much allowance for all these things. For millennia of fear and oppression - and the burgeoning fear that we're losing the gains of just 100 years of meaningful political emancipation as a distinct and valid demographic long denied us in the name of what at least some of these men now embrace, or appear to embrace...

Edited

It's interesting.
A good 75% of the essay is setting out why the TRA position conflate equality and belief, and why they are wrong to do so because of the negative impact on women's equality. I think most people who understand the debate and are GC will find that uncontroversial as you say.

The last bit is (I think) him trying to explore the more extreme end of the GC spectrum in the same way, by pointing out that much of the debate at that far "ultra" (as defined by him, not me) is like the TRA position because its prioritising belief over equality.

I think he's saying if one genuinely applies the same standards of equality to all people, and the same freedom of belief, then humans need to tolerate trans peoples rights to present and identify however they want, whilst recognising others have the right to disagree. Exactly as PPs excellent post upthread about dress codes outlines.

He really isn't saying that people "should" think anything. He's saying "if you believe x and y, then logically Z" and trying to give examples of where some in the GC community (the "illiberals") aren't following that logic and what that means. It's conceptual really, a very theoretical, philosophical piece.

I like it because it helps me make sense of my own position regarding gender but it really is a long load of academic posturing in another sense. I can't help thinking that if it was written by a woman there would be a lot less tolerance for the length and complexity of the position.

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/09/2024 00:11

I consider men being able to perform a fetish in public but more specifically female spaces to be an undermining of hard fought women's rights, women's dignity and women's equality.

Some people, and when it comes to sex crimes definitely some men, are incapable of behaving in a civilised and respectful manner unless there is civic disapproval and punishment for aberrant behaviour.

Live and let live attitudes get you only so far when someone else is happy to take malicious advantage of your tolerance or naiveté.

LilyBartsHatShop · 06/09/2024 04:49

I tried reading this article and thought the first section contained a helpful but unoriginal analogy so wasn't inspired to persevere.
I thought Hayton had publically owned up to being motivated to transition by autogynophilia? Why is Francione being so coy about it?

LilyBartsHatShop · 06/09/2024 05:08

I think Francion speaks to male entitlement.
And ... I was working on editing a big long post here but honestly I just can't with the bringing Twitter spats into what started as an interesting, disinterested philosophy essay.
Twitter is a cesspit. It's where inchoate arguments go to beocome petty spats, and emerging great thinkers go to become prematurely bitter and twisted.

NonsuchCastle · 06/09/2024 05:24

I've seen a wide variety of "female" presentations of trans women.
Some have short hair, no make up, trousers etc. Some have long, wavy hair, make up and heels. Just as women do. Wide variety of presentations, clothing choices etc.

I've not really seen "exaggerated" "feminine" looks except on drag queens.

PinkStingray · 06/09/2024 06:03

Catiette · 05/09/2024 20:39

Yes - a lot of the time we do sense when someone's a potential danger. Which is why that withering, "How are you suggesting you tell - by their appearance (derisory chuckle at easy gotcha)?" felt, somehow, quite upsetting. They just don't know what it's like. I do wish they'd try harder to imagine.

My Woman's essence tells me😉

Catiette · 06/09/2024 07:16

That’s a really helpful explanation, Cassie - yes, in that sense, there’s a logical coherence. And that’s fair, NonSuch - I’ve seen both. I think it’s just that I find it unsettling that society tells me that this doesn’t affect me in any way at all - that any slight, unspoken wariness of either presentation on my part is simply an “illiberal” contravention of the values “most of us share” (“bigotry” by any other name). It’s a bit more complex. There’s the context of those millennia of oppression, and an associated uncertainty, borne of years of cultural “nurture”, re: how to interpret those various social codes (eg. clothes) being taken so far out of their usual context. There’s also “nature” - the biological imperative to think twice in response to the “other”. Humans continue to seek to overcome this, and that’s a hugely positive progression - but I don’t think that denying or misrepresenting this instinct always helps in this noble aim. Should a woman experiencing a self-preserving “flight” instinct be seen as equally reprehensible as a man indulging a “fight” response (eg. in an - obviously wholly unacceptable - show of aggression or disgust?) In that awful Australian promotion, the audience was assumed to perceive the woman leaving the lift containing the smart, understatedly-presenting transwoman, as showing the latter. There seemed to be no conception on the part of the Victorian government of the possibility of a different, more valid, female response. Default male again? This is really difficult to express, and feels uncomfortable putting into words…

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 06/09/2024 09:07

You're not missing anything. I felt the same way about the article. (Although it also started me thinking about the ways in which belief challenges liberalism and where the boundaries really are. All the examples that he gave for religion were "easy" / uncontroversial ones.)

So, I was enjoying it nearly til the end. Until we got to "An Illiberal Version of the Gender-Critical Position". Dismissed as "illiberal" for not wanting to be put on the receiving end of someone else's contempt or fetishism? Just because we can't prove that every single individual is being contemptuous or a fetishist? Easy enough for me to not care, no skin off my nose, but these "illiberals" are often the women who've been most harmed by these men and I'm not going to dismiss them just so I can think of myself as "liberal". It's not illiberal to need a solution that works for women.

I wondered why what went wrong and then I flipped back and realised - ta-da! - Gary is a bloke. Maaaaate.

Not every bloke who puts on a frock to be contemptuous or indulge a fetish (I'm fond of Mr Menno myself) but when there is doubt I'd trust Tinsel's judgment over Gary's.

Still, it'll do. Can't expect perfection. Might even work on some people I know.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 06/09/2024 12:34

The problem isn't that a man putting on a dress automatically appropriates womanhood¹; it's that some men put on a dress in order to appropriate womanhood (and think external appearance is all there is to it).

Totally different things.

Sometimes people have stones in their shoes because they've walked through a gravelly area; sometimes they have stones in their shoes because they are smuggling diamonds.

Totally different things.

Motivations and details matter.

¹ I've spent a fair bit of time around men wearing things that are dresses or skirts in all but name - no material difference in construction, but tradition dictates they are called 'kilts', 'robes' or 'tunics'. They are wearing them in order to pretend to be a Viking or a Roman, or to attend a Scottish wedding, or because it's perfectly normal for a man to wear a sarong. Not to pretend to be a woman. It is possible to tell the difference, although it might be hard to codify it.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 06/09/2024 12:48

The problem isn't that a man putting on a dress automatically appropriates womanhood¹; it's that some men put on a dress in order to appropriate womanhood

<bing>

Winederlust · 06/09/2024 12:48

CassieMaddox · 05/09/2024 20:41

Both can be true.

This author isn't talking about all GC people; he's talking specifically about those GC people who claim men are "appropriating womanhood" by complying with stereotypes of femininity. It's an interesting point.

Thanks, yes I was aware he was focusing on a specific group of GC people, however I think - from my experience - the argument is largely the same regardless of which GC 'camp' you fall into. The fact that these men think 'performing femininity) is the same as 'being a woman'.
There may well be a minority who base their arguments on their own belief in gender stereotypes but I'd suggest they are few and far between. In fact I'd probably suggest they aren't, in fact, GC (by it's very definition).

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 06/09/2024 12:55

yes, the problem isn't the clothes.

the problem is the man saying he's a woman

now I'm picking my words carefully here, but my belief is that this behaviour in men is always rooted in some extremely strange ideas about women. how could it not be?

men with extremely strange ideas about women give me the creeps, regardless of how they're dressed

men with extremely strange ideas about women who exhibit those ideas by claiming to be women often dress in a way that gives me the creeps. but it's the man in the clothes and his strange ideas giving me the creeps, not the clothes themselves as such

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 06/09/2024 12:57

I can't help but feel if time is short, it would be better be spent watching the transwidows film than reading this article.

And I don't think it's that difficult to codify what is acceptable in various situations in terms of clothing - men wearing fake breasts in the workplace is more likely than not to be a sexual fetish and involving non consenting others (and to be experienced as sexual harassment). Man wearing a skirt of the same length and type acceptable for women in the workplace = fine.

I have a friend who says that the transwomen in his workplace wear fetish gear no woman hoping to be taken seriously and not fired would ever wear. Somehow different rules apply because they're men.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 06/09/2024 13:00

Normal healthy male bodies do not require bras

when a man starts wearing a bra it's a pretty good indicator that something fishy is going on

PriOn1 · 06/09/2024 14:11

I read that and felt certain he was misrepresenting the position of those who self describe as “ultras” on Twitter, but it has taken me some thought to define what I think he gets wrong. I get the impression he doesn’t have much time for them and therefore dismisses what they say without really listening.

My understanding is not that those women object to anyone using preferred pronouns ever. I think the objection is more to do with those who claim they are campaigning for women’s rights. I think the feeling is that, on a “gender critical” platform, so to speak, those speaking on women’s behalf ought to consistently put women’s rights first. In order to do that, it isn’t possible to include males like Debbie Hayton in your campaigning, because of the strong suspicion that he is outwardly supporting women in order to retain some of the privileges transactivism has given him.

So calling those men “she” and “her” weakens every argument we make that men are not women. At least, that is where I think the “ultra” label stems from.

It also cropped up when there were a group of medics who (like Dr Cass) use a lot of the language of gender identity ideology and took a kind of soft approach to the medicalisation issue. The argument is between those who openly state that they consider all medical transitioning is inappropriate and those who want a more softly, softly approach. The problem here, again, is blurred lines.

Maybe I have it wrong, but the women I know that call themselves ultras don’t want there to be any blurred lines about which men can safely be allowed to cross dress and enter women’s spaces. They reject the claim that any man should be in there.

They also see a risk in blurred lines around the idea that there are patients who would benefit from medical transition, if we can just find which they are, and that maybe we should still be taking it seriously enough to propose experimenting on more children. If you believe the whole experiment has been based on untruths and fetishism, from the beginning, then the straightforward answer is to stop medically transitioning and find a better path. Taking a middle path might easily slow or stop progress at that middle point, and then it might take much longer to reach the point when realization dawns that all medical transition is politically driven and not medically beneficial and therefore ought to stop..

A large part of the problem is, that there are indeed a large group of men who are now cross dressing in public, partly because it’s sexually arousing and that it used to be fully understood that part of the arousal was in watching women’s reactions. Men like him are unaffected, so it’s easy to dismiss.

It’s a form of sexual behaviour that used to be governed by societal norms, but has been normalised. I would ask, if men are allowed to wear anything they like, as long as there’s no public indecency, should it be argued they should also be allowed to wear gimp suits, as long as they are fully covered?

It is obviously a difficult line to draw, but blatant public displays of sexuality should be unacceptable, including some men who wear women’s clothing. If fashions become normalised, so that men’s clothing becomes more feminine, then of course men can wear dresses. But while a large majority of the men in dresses are performing their sexual fetish in public, they are only going to normalise it for other men who want to do the same.

I think the author is missing the nuance because he is male and men and women are not equal. There is still a big difference between women in men’s clothes and men in women’s clothes and it’s the sexual element, which is much more common among men, which is the complicating factor.

It strikes me that, in saying women can’t possibly have blurred lines around which males in women’s clothes leave women feeling safe and which don’t, all we end up with is different blurred lines.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 06/09/2024 14:26

I know that call themselves ultras don’t want there to be any blurred lines about which men can safely be allowed to cross dress and enter women’s spaces.

My position is:

  • Any man can wear a dress¹.
  • No man should be allowed in women's single-sex spaces, whether he's in a dress or not.

Does that make me.an ultra?

¹ I reserve the right to disapprove if they are in an inappropriate dress or 'dresssed as a woman' (other than for theatrical purposes).

duc748 · 06/09/2024 14:45

'Illiberal' seems a odd word in the context. Never mind a view being illiberal, is it true? Or accurate? isn't that more important?

I must admit, when, as often, I read pieces that begin with a rider to the effect "yes, of course we all agree that trans people should be free to present as they choose...", and I think, hang on a minute, do we, really? Is a male teacher with huge fake tits and fish-nets OK? I don't think it is. So I think, at the very least, there is a line. It's question of where we draw it.

UtopiaPlanitia · 06/09/2024 15:48

@PriOn1 I think your analysis of the women currently being designated ‘Ultras’ as being concerned about the blurring of lines and the resultant reducing of safety (and safeguarding) is a good summary.

I also agree that a lot of men (and some well-off women) just don’t get this because they life safer lives. Róisín Michaux described this difference of experience in a great article:

https://4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor/

You Meet More Perverts When You're Poor

The pampered activists running our institutions have no idea what they're unleashing on women.

https://4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor

CassieMaddox · 06/09/2024 15:55

Winederlust · 06/09/2024 12:48

Thanks, yes I was aware he was focusing on a specific group of GC people, however I think - from my experience - the argument is largely the same regardless of which GC 'camp' you fall into. The fact that these men think 'performing femininity) is the same as 'being a woman'.
There may well be a minority who base their arguments on their own belief in gender stereotypes but I'd suggest they are few and far between. In fact I'd probably suggest they aren't, in fact, GC (by it's very definition).

I didn't read it that he was talking about trans people at all. I read it that he was starting from a logical position that if you believe all humans have the right to belief and self expression, some people will choose to identify as trans. And exploring the more "ultra" GC position and implications from that starting point.

It is a starting point that exposes differences in the "GC camp" (to use your term) more effectively than focusing on why some males are trans and so sparls debate. For that reason I think its useful, if overly intellectualism, because basically its a more long winded version of the left v. right debate.