Transmen video

[AlvinStardustsGloves]

Posting this without comment. I found it very thought provoking.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/sbX2Mb8mcJofpoFw/

Wow. A great example of Operation Let Them Speak.

Thought-provoking indeed.

I had a scan through the comments and there are so many that support this.

It shows how it's possible for people to see the same thing and have a totally different takeaway, depending on their core belief. If you believe that everyone has a gender identity, and that there are distinct ways that females and males should behave according to their gender identity, it's reasonably logical that transition makes sense. If you don't hold this belief, it's very much the opposite - and is a demonstration of fear of puberty/growing up, sexist stereotypes and internalised homophobia.

There were several stand-out moments (paraphrased) e.g.

"The realisation that I'm stuck in this body"

"I was attracted to girls. I'm meant to be attracted to boys. So that's when I came out"**

"I didn't fit in this sex. In this role"

"I didn't like dresses"

"Periods are horrible"

** this one is where most of the cognitive dissonance seems to sit within the public discourse. The forced-teaming of LGB with T creates a complete muddle.

Straight allies end up totally confused and default to the idea that "if I don't understand it, I'll keep trying to do so but in the meantime I'll recognise that it's my failing. Because only that person has the right to define their sexuality". Sexual orientation (fact) and the idea that we all have a gender identity (belief) become totally intertwined.

Meanwhile, anyone who tries to point out that a lesbian (sexual orientation) women (sex) who identifies as a straight (sexual orientation) man (gender identity) has "transed away the gay" is immediately force-teamed with homophobic traditional religious groups. Obviously the person's gayness hasn't gone away in real life because their sex hasn't actually changed. They are still a woman who is attracted to women. However, they now believe themselves to be a straight man, and thanks to testosterone's powerful effects, often look like men.

It's an utter mind-fuck for people to unpick unless they really think hard, so they default to a Be Kind approach, where ostensibly the only way to avoid being homophobic is to support the full LGBT+++++ 🤦‍♀️

The challenge is articulating why gender identity belief is homophobic. This is so poorly understood in the public discourse. It requires two hops: 1) the recognition that it's a belief, not a fact, that everyone has a gender identity 2) the recognition that someone could be disgusted at themselves for being same-sex attracted.

Point 2 is often talked about by gay men and lesbian women. Thankfully we now live in a society where we can recognise how destructive this is and, in the UK at least, the homophobic voices of the religious traditionalists are not as loud as the majority "live and let live" voices. But without point 1, there will continue to be confusion and those who mistakenly berate themselves for being bad allies if they feel any sense of doubt.

I work with a (female born) trans man, or possibly trans non binary person, I wouldn't dream of probing too hard to establish the facts of a status that may well be changing over time. The little contact that I have with this person (who's extremely personable and has some excellent professional qualities) has done little to dispel many of my prejudices. The person is same sex attracted and suffers from, I wouldn't say 'crippling', but from autism on a level that interferes with day to day life somewhat. I'm very sceptical that 'being a man' is a very complete prognosis for this person.

Thanks for sharing, even though I find the video infuriating and very sad. The one who has had a child was interesting when she talked about the physical changes brought about by testosterone:

‘I think I was feeling what most people are feeling every single day- for the first time.’

Well that’s bollocks, isn’t it? I certainly spend absolutely zero time looking in the mirror feeling all affirmed about my ‘gender’. There is lots of stuff I don’t like about my face and body. Like most people, I just get on with my life and try to accept myself as I am- and with an emphasis on my character and my traits, not what I look like. Yet again I’m struck by how much of this movement is mostly about aesthetics. It’s just excessive cosmetic surgery with the added threat of suicide if others don’t agree/comply.

Yes, autism adds yet another layer and another cognitive dissonance trap:

People are called ableist if they raise concerns that people with autism are disproportionately drawn towards believing themselves to be "in the wrong body". There are lots of threads on this but the main reasons can probably be summarised as a) a fixed understanding of how men and women behave in a society, even if this is acknowledged as being rooted in sex-based stereotypes b) a desire to understand the self in relation to this "rulebook".

Anyone who wants to show their support as an ally for autism is at risk of berating themselves as ableist if they feel any sense of doubt about an autistic person's declared gender identity.

Anger levels rise quickly. I've been called all sorts for "speaking on behalf of people with autism" when raising these concerns online.

Even though clinical psychologists know that most people with autism need support with cognitive/language/information processing, particularly during childhood and adolesence, many seem to forget this when applying it to how they might process what "being female" or "being male" means. IME academically intelligent autistic people are particularly likely to hold a belief in the concept of gender identity to explain the differences between men and women.

Ultimately though, it still comes down to core belief: someone either believes that we all have a gender identity or they don't, whether they are autistic or not. And nobody likes to hear their core belief described as "wrong" or "delusional". Christians probably get used to it when it comes to people doubting the existence of god but I doubt they really embrace this kind of pushback.

The problem here is that even a light touch pushback (e.g. "I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity, but I accept and understand that you do believe this") is seen as bigoted, ignorant and/or hateful.

As with LGB, there are thankfully many people with autism who are now questioning the enforced belief in gender identity. Several are brilliant posters on this chat board.

Edited to add a couple of disclaimers which will hopefully save this post from deletion 🤞:
a) obviously not everyone with autism has fixed ideas about "being female" or "being male" in relation to behaviour
b) I've realised I've used a mixture of "people with autism" and "autistic people"... and that some people have concerns about which terminology is "correct". Hopefully it's obvious that my intention isn't to offend!

You did a much more thorough job than I did, BonfireLady - my notes said something along the lines of
Periods - ewww!
Breasts - ewwww!
Reddit - [serious face] well researched responsible source of facts on transition
Gender therapist - yay! agreed with 'ewwww' at very first consultation.
Male - muscles, deep voice, thinks of sex, like 100 times a day, dude, hairy butt.
Phalloplasty -meh, or possibly ewww.
Women - phoarr, 100 times a day. But respectfully, of course [serious face].

The only positive thing I noticed is that women make more convincing-looking 'men' than men make 'women'. Nicer-looking too, maybe it's because they don't have to put on loads of make-up, ewwww. And they get to wear cool garms, dude.

OMG I had to google Phalloplasty to check the spelling, and now it's in my search history. Ewwwww.
I'd better not commit any serious crimes, I've watched enough TV crime programmes to know that the rozzers will be all over my computer searches in double quick time, won't they? 😱
As the old saying goes: 'Be careful what you search for'

Thanks for the replies.
I agree that it can take quite a bit of thought to get one's head around it all, and then not to get flummoxed when others come out with the #BeKind stuff.

They are not asking for kindness, they are demanding enablement.

The main thing that jumped out at me was how childlike their speech and manner was. I don't know if they just happened to find people that aren't very bright but it didn't feel like normal adult ways of phrasing things

the recognition that someone could be disgusted at themselves for being same-sex attracted.

I've not watched the video yet, but this phrase stood out in relation to something I've been thinking about.

I wonder if it is not disgust at the self for being gay so much as aching to be looked at by the girls you fancy the way that they look at boys.

Sonething like "I know I fancy girls but the girls I fancy aren't lesbian girls. The girls I fancy are straight. I wish I was a straight guy. Hang on, if I wish I was a straight guy that means I'm trans, doesn't it? So I actually am a straight guy. I'm a trans straight guy."