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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Neil Gaiman Accused Of Sexual Assault Pt II

1000 replies

hihelenhi · 26/08/2024 14:30

As we're nearly at the end of the first thread, let's make sure we keep the topic current.

There have been five women now who have spoken to podcasts about the predatory behaviour of Neil Gaiman.

First thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5112128-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault

OP posts:
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BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/01/2025 21:37

frankly, even if Scarlett was well up for it, he STILL should have left her alone because she was

  1. an employee
  2. 40 years younger than him

eurgh. disgusting old goat

hihelenhi · 26/01/2025 21:37

I'm wondering why the girl in the hot tub texted her mate to say she had great, hot sex with this bloke and then says she was raped. What a loada cobblers.

I'm wondering why you haven't addressed the multiple other reports from other women or the coercive power dynamics mentioned

I think your reasoning (not to mention your understanding and ethics) are complete "cobblers", but then if you're a Gaiman fan or abuse apologist who hasn't a clue about coercion, grooming or power dynamics, I'd expect nothing better.

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MaidOfAle · 26/01/2025 21:38

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 21:31

I'm wondering why the girl in the hot tub texted her mate to say she had great, hot sex with this bloke and then says she was raped. What a loada cobblers.

Because the victims of rape by men they admire are often in denial about it.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 21:39

OK. Take it to Court with due process before you cancel someone and deprive them of their living. That's my only concern. It could happen to anyone in any job. These days, people are cancelled on the flimsiest of reasons and don't think any of you are exempt from it.

hihelenhi · 26/01/2025 21:39

MaidOfAle · 26/01/2025 21:38

Because the victims of rape by men they admire are often in denial about it.

Yes. And there is also something called the "fawn" response.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/01/2025 21:40

Yes. And there is also something called the "fawn" response.

Yes, exactly. Very common.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/01/2025 21:41

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 21:39

OK. Take it to Court with due process before you cancel someone and deprive them of their living. That's my only concern. It could happen to anyone in any job. These days, people are cancelled on the flimsiest of reasons and don't think any of you are exempt from it.

ah

having sex with a junior employee is a 'flimsy' reason to lose your job? better tell that to, well, just about every corporate employer. look, he's just being judged by the same rules most of us in office jobs are. this seems to upset you, but them's the facts chuck.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/01/2025 21:42

OK. Take it to Court with due process before you cancel someone and deprive them of their living. That's my only concern. It could happen to anyone in any job. These days, people are cancelled on the flimsiest of reasons and don't think any of you are exempt from it.

Wonder why he hasn't taken legal action then? He's got enough money to dish out $300k NDAs.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/01/2025 21:43

(plus I'm obviously judging him to fuck for being a grubby sad sack who likes hurting and demeaning women during sex)

MaidOfAle · 26/01/2025 21:43

guinnessguzzler · 26/01/2025 21:30

One of the things that made me most angry when I served on the jury of a rapist was the realisation that had the victim been someone like me, the rapist would almost certainly have been persuaded to plead guilty. As it was she was a 'dim sounding' alcoholic. Homeless at the time. Extremely vulnerable. And yet all that meant she was far less likely to get the justice she deserved when she should have been better protected. Fuck right off. But she did get justice, and these women will too.

Abusive men deliberately prey on vulnerable women and at the same time those vulnerable women are less likely to be believed. It's why I'd sooner kill myself than become a psychiatric in-patient and is also why 90% of autistic women have been the victims of sexual assault compared to 33% of all women.

Evidence That Nine Autistic Women Out of Ten Have Been Victims of Sexual Violence - PMC

Research indicates that sexual violence affects about 30% of women in the general population and between two to three times as much for autistic women. We investigated prevalence of sexual abuse, autistic traits and a range of symptoms, using an ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9087551

hihelenhi · 26/01/2025 21:43

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 21:39

OK. Take it to Court with due process before you cancel someone and deprive them of their living. That's my only concern. It could happen to anyone in any job. These days, people are cancelled on the flimsiest of reasons and don't think any of you are exempt from it.

Gaiman is super wealthy. He is not going to be deprived of much, more's the pity.

I'd have more empathy for the women supposedly employed by him (but who he didn't pay) who he coerced into sex. In one case, under threat of losing her home.

Given you clearly haven't bothered with the rest of the reports your banging on here about what appears to be your own agenda is largely irrelevant.

As I said, ignorant enablers and victim blamers around abusive men like Gaiman repulse me.

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DrMaxwell · 26/01/2025 21:43

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 21:39

OK. Take it to Court with due process before you cancel someone and deprive them of their living. That's my only concern. It could happen to anyone in any job. These days, people are cancelled on the flimsiest of reasons and don't think any of you are exempt from it.

Court is only one way of dealing with unacceptable behaviour. Individuals are entitled to form their own opinions based on the information they have and act upon them (within the law) accordingly. A huge number of people, including those who have a business relationship with him, have done just that. Who are you to say they aren't entitled to do so?

WorriedMutha · 26/01/2025 21:48

I'm looking forward to the Gaiman v Tortoise media libel trial then. I'm sure he's got deep pockets and must be straining at the bit to clear his name.
I guess we should all stop maligning Jimmy Saville who never stood trial and denied all rumours of sexual proclivities.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/01/2025 21:51

Poor old misunderstood Jim. He just wanted to run marathons for charity.

guinnessguzzler · 26/01/2025 21:51

That's an horrendous stat @MaidOfAle Truly awful. But yes, these men know exactly what they're doing when looking for their victims.

teawamutu · 26/01/2025 21:55

I was going to mention Gaiman's net worth, but I think this thread comprehensively proves that that is nothing.

So I will say instead that his personal wealth is estimated at a minimum $18 million. Even if he never published another word, losing his livelihood is not going to put him on the breadline. Unfortunately.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 22:02

Since when has the rule of law and a fair trial in court become irrelevant in this country? If he has committed a crime he should be tried. Otherwise, everything on Twitter, Instagram, mumsnet, the Guardian, Times or anything else is mere gossip. Back in the day, people were burned at the stake through gossip and denunciation. We seem to be in a similar era, albeit people don't die but they lose their livelihood.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/01/2025 22:08

Man alive, do you have reading cognition issues @YourAmplePlumPoster ?

are you not going to address the points about Gaiman's undisputed acts being quite enough for most people to get fired?

at this point I'm really struggling to understand what point you're actually making

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/01/2025 22:09

I think it's just a big old merail @BernardBlacksMolluscs

MaidOfAle · 26/01/2025 22:15

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 22:02

Since when has the rule of law and a fair trial in court become irrelevant in this country? If he has committed a crime he should be tried. Otherwise, everything on Twitter, Instagram, mumsnet, the Guardian, Times or anything else is mere gossip. Back in the day, people were burned at the stake through gossip and denunciation. We seem to be in a similar era, albeit people don't die but they lose their livelihood.

What he's admitted to is enough to get him fired from a normal job.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 22:17

What if you're accused of "transphobia" in the workplace by colleagues? This goes on all the time. And youre actually fired from your job for being a "transphobe." We know this shit has happened. My point is that encouraging witch hunts can backfire.

WorriedMutha · 26/01/2025 22:19

You are making the preposterous point that everything the press publish should have been adjudicated by a court of law. It really isn't. They can attribute stories to sources and readers can make their own mind up. You seem to be arguing for a news blackout until there's been a trial or an admission. Move on. You're like a stuck record now and as others have said, you aren't tackling any of the points made to you.

SpidersAreShitheads · 26/01/2025 22:22

Here's a question for you @YourAmplePlumPoster:

In the UK, only 3% of reported rapes get prosecuted. And of those 3%, the conviction rate is around 62%.

Do you believe that all of the allegations of rape that weren't prosecuted are false? And the ones that didn't result in a conviction - were they false too?

Is your only measure a conviction of culpability in court?

I do actually understand your reluctance to convict someone by social media. I think fairness is important, and I previously thought about this issue myself.

But when there's a situation where a rich and powerful man has clearly used his position to have sex with women in vulnerable positions, and where those women all have similar stories, I think there's enough evidence to draw a reasonable conclusion. He hasn't denied exploiting those women and he's admitted that he "needs to do work". Even if you personally don't feel it meets the threshold for rape, surely you can see that it's sexual coercion and predatory behaviour (at the very least)?

Also, a person doesn't need to have committed a crime for them to be cancelled. Acting in a morally repugnant way is sufficient grounds, imo. And there is no dispute whatsoever, including from Gaiman himself, that he engaged in sexual relations with women who were vulnerable in a variety of ways. That's dreadful, immoral, exploitative behaviour from someone who set himself up as a feminist ally.

He's welcome to sue if the allegations are false. His very prolonged silence and the absence of any legal actions speaks volumes.

Someone previously (apologies, I can't remember your name) talked about these women not being the "perfect victims" and I think there's absolute truth in that. You're holding them culpable for a man's deviant sexual behaviour because they acted in a way that you don't think is right for a victim.

This case has given me lots of pause for thought. About what coercive control really means, how it manifests, and the limit of responsibilities. It's difficult and there are many grey areas. The only thing that is crystal clear is that regardless of anything else, Gaiman should not have been exploiting his position and having sex with those women.

Personally I believe it's much more than that and that Gaiman is a depraved, abusive rapist of a man, and that's based on the similarities in the stories of 10 separate women who never freely consented to what he did.

But at the very, very least, I think he deserves to be completely ostracized for the facts that are admitted and aren't in dispute.

For the rest, he deserves prison but I doubt that will ever happen because "3%".

Juliagreeneyes · 26/01/2025 22:22

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 22:17

What if you're accused of "transphobia" in the workplace by colleagues? This goes on all the time. And youre actually fired from your job for being a "transphobe." We know this shit has happened. My point is that encouraging witch hunts can backfire.

Saying things people object to is very different to anally assaulting the nanny!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/01/2025 22:27

YourAmplePlumPoster · 26/01/2025 22:17

What if you're accused of "transphobia" in the workplace by colleagues? This goes on all the time. And youre actually fired from your job for being a "transphobe." We know this shit has happened. My point is that encouraging witch hunts can backfire.

it's not a witch hunt though is it? he's accepted that he had sex with an employee 40 years his junior. I'm cool with him being cancelled for that. so he's being cancelled for a thing he actually did and doesn't dispute. works for me

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