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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What’s to be done about the patriarchy?

80 replies

Jazzicatz · 22/08/2024 18:04

Hello all, as a revolutionary feminist I am really interested in how we as feminists should enact change to overthrow our oppressors. I have read a lot of Lenin on what is to be done about class struggle. Do you think we could ever overthrow patriarchy and if so, how?

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · 24/08/2024 16:33

biscuitandcake · 24/08/2024 11:21

You make interesting points but I am not sure why you quoted me, what you wrote doesn't bear any relation to what I was saying.

I am a bit tired of people using gender roles in Denmark as a "gotcha". When Jordan Peterson did it, he was responding to a specific point about pay inequality/women's participation in certain parts of the workforce. The person was blaming "patriarchy" so his point was a direct refutation of that (and indirectly a suggestion by him that Denmark is less "patriarchal"). But now, people keep using that argument as a response to completely unrelated issues - I don't think anyone was talking about the jobs women do until you brought up the fact that women in Denmark choose to do certain jobs. Well good for those women. But it isn't an argument for not worrying about male violence in society. for not worrying about male dominance in politics/decision making roles etc. At most, it shows that if you lessen those problems, it gives everyone more freedom and choices (the whole point Peterson was making hinges on the fact that women in Denmark have more choice and therefore choose specific jobs. Some people disagree but that's the whole argument.) Denmark has comparatively low rates of male violence and high rates of female participation in politics.

Just responding to any argument about "patriarchy" or "feminism" or "male violence" with "Denmark" and "ideological traps" is, ironically, itself an ideologically limited response.

I don't really know much about about Jordan Peterson, tbh......my comments about the Danish example largely come from threads and discussions on this board.

I didn't say not to worry about male violence. I'm not minimising anything, I'm just offering a different perspective on matters.I've been through all of the same stages of the feminist argument as yourself ( I imagine!).......but have now landed somewhere a little different, that's all. I tend to find Mary Harrington's perspective on women and women's rights the most interesting these days.......and she too has actively lived all of the previous stages of feminsim/genderism and come out of it all on the other side of motherhood re-visiting and looking at matters anew.

I'm not sure i have a set ideology anymore...... encountering transgenderism and the politics of identity it encapsulates, and the way that the British Left had been captured by it all - shook me free of my previous certainties. Plus life has a habit of teaching you things you hadn't anticipated.

Shortshriftandlethal · 24/08/2024 16:36

Thelnebriati · 24/08/2024 11:24

Why is it acceptable to talk about ''differences between the sexes' when its jobs women choose in Denmark, but not when its male violence against women and children?

Who was suggesting what was acceptable to discuss and what was not? Certainly wasn't me. Everything is open for discussion and re/assessment as far as I'm concerned.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 24/08/2024 22:53

Hatfullofwillow · 23/08/2024 17:47

You could wipe out 90% of us from the planet, but the 10% of us left would still own most of the land and the means of production.

Until women are represented equally at all levels, and evidence suggests it would be transformative if that were the case, then there's only so much that can be achieved.

Capitalism & patriarchy are so intertwined I honestly don't think you can defeat either on their own, it's the social relations of production and/or the social relations of reproduction (Juliet Mitchell) that need deconstructing.

Capitalism & patriarchy are so intertwined I honestly don't think you can defeat either on their own

This.
It is the nature of capitalism that only a few men really benefit from it. Most men (indeed most workers of either sex) are victims of capitalism.
Even the ones who actually enjoy their jobs are trapped by them, having no choice but to carry on with the daily grind to keep housed and fed. Switching jobs does not change this fact. Even the well-paid feel hard-done-by as they are still under the control of employers.
Retirement is seen as the only way out. Some try to "start their own business" but the vast majority of businesses fail in the first few years.

When a man feels trapped, victimised, treated unfairly, or controlled, he is likely to become violent.
And the victim of his violence will either be another man (usually out on the streets, fuelled by alcohol), or a woman (usually in the home, though not always).

Patriarchy gives even poor and downtrodden men a way to feel powerful and in control. Capitalism supports patriarchy as it stabilises the males who would otherwise turn to violent revolution.

The problem we have now is that capitalism needed more workers (it always needs more workers as it has to grow forever or die), so it brought in the women. Women were tricked into thinking paid employment was liberation and freedom. For some it has been a better deal, but for many women it has just led to the 'double shift'.
And now that women are becoming more financially independent, so can be more picky about the men they choose, so the men who are left out, unable to keep a woman, are getting angrier.

How to solve all this, I do not know. But equality of the sexes cannot be achieved without equality of everyone, so no more class/wealth division.

Thelnebriati · 24/08/2024 23:10

Patriarchy is a hierarchical system that gives men a whipping boy - women - so that capitalism can exploit them.
When men feel isolated, they blame us. When they fail, they blame us. They don't blame the system. Its our role to mop up their angst and its why women constantly try to placate men.

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