What’s to be done about the patriarchy?

[Jazzicatz]

Hello all, as a revolutionary feminist I am really interested in how we as feminists should enact change to overthrow our oppressors. I have read a lot of Lenin on what is to be done about class struggle. Do you think we could ever overthrow patriarchy and if so, how?

And this is the crux of the problem

How are you defining " the structural oppression of the patriarchy"?

How do you move beyond differences?

It is only a problem because it is being positioned as a problem in the context of an over-arching political ideology, which defines the facts of the female body as an oppression.

What would all this mean for children? Sorry, you only have one parent, you have no right to a relationship with your father.

And if you're a boy, don't think you'll ever grow up to live in a family the one in which you spent your childhood. Your future is rootless sperm donor I'm afraid. Oh and you'll need to leave the commune once you hit puberty. As you have no father to take you in, I guess that means being self-sufficient from 13/14?

What you seem to be doing, though, is turning a negative personal experience into a generalised and wider structural issue. If it was structural.....all people would have the same experience.

When you say "structural" are you referring to the fact that males tend generally to be bigger, faster and stronger? And that women have the potential, and most often do, go on to give birth to children which they have carried in their womb?

Are you perhaps suggesting that biology itself is structural oppression?

Lol. No. Women don't have these powers nor resources. Do like me. Find a good man. A teach your girls to marry good men or noone

To be honest? it is never ever going to end.

Funnily enough while in Australia they now have no sex at all, only gender, in Afghanistan women are forbidden to show any scrap of skin.

And everything in between. I am over it all. I simply cannot care about any of it at this stage. I will continue to share information and go on marches about MVAWG and that is my lot. I am beaten and i am not getting back up again.

In my opinion, patriarchal oppression is a system in which men have more power and privilege than women. It's a system in which women are systematically excluded from positions of power.

This inequality of power means that men are the primary authority figures and women are more likely to experience poverty and have unequal access to resources.Within this structure women are expected to play submissive and subservient roles.

We don't need to move beyond differences.

Why would we need to 'move beyond' differences? The reason 'equality' has failed is because bad faith actors insist it can only mean one thing - identical treatment.
And thats how we've ended up with men demanding - and getting - access to resources intended for women.

@Brefugee If you feel beaten then imagine how frustrating it must be for men to never be able to win - because nothing they demand will ever be enough. Just carry on being the grit in their oyster until they grow up and stop throwing a tantrum because someone said No to them.

What do you think creates and upholds this structure? In which ways would you say it was maintained? And are you differentiating between societies which are legally and structurally patriarchal ( where men auomatically have legal custody of children after divorce, or where a woman's word is worth less than that of a man in law etc) and western societies in which there is equal rights provision and protection in law?

What is 'equality' if we don't already have it, in your view? What does it look like in practice?

Here's a fun suggestion for non violent revolution, advanced by the linguist Suzette Haden Harris in her trilogy "Native Tongue". It starts in a future where patriarchal norms have become entrenched and the human race is in contact with aliens. There is a special caste of people called the linguists, who are responsible for learning and speaking alien languages, which they do by intensive, immersive study from birth. The linguists are especially puritanical and patriarchal in their private relations, which means segregation of unmarried women etc. Each linguists family has a Batren House, where live with other women who have passed their reproductive years, or sometimes as a way out of an unhappy (for the man) marriage etc. In the Barren Houses the women begin the construction of a female language, designed to represent the perspective of women. For example, there is a word for the kind of holiday which entails so much organising and work, and where the involvement of other adults serves only to increase the burden rather than lighten it, that one ends up less rested and more stressed, even though it is supposed to be a holiday.

The women of all the linguist families share the language through a code they have created, and write to each other back and forth under the guise of sharing recipes, so that a man monitoring the communications between women, which he is entitled to do, wouldn't realise the true content of the communication.

In the trilogy, the women start using the language and it at first seems to give them distance from the emotional involvement of the men who control them. In this distance they do gain some control and dignity over their lives in such a way the men don't notice. The men they interact with are improved in this, too, it's all very gentle.

The main.issue that the book sees with patriarchy is that it is underscored and directed by violence. So the possiblity of direct overthrowing Ti's impossible because it is impossible to confront violence without entering into violence oneself.

The books span about 100 years and I am only part way through the last one, however by now a non violent revolution is fully underway. The men have noticed better relations but believe they have just learned to manage their women well whereas actually the women are managing them. There is debate in the now called Women Houses, where all women have a right to reside and live, about whether to teach the language to boys.There are other stories enveloping all this but at a basic level the main thought experiment is about how being able to create a language primarily based in a non violent and non patriarchal understanding of human relations could cause a non violent and non patriarchal revolution.

What do you think creates and upholds this structure?

The power of men over women which in many countries is not only enshrined in law but is enforced by society, including religion.In the UK, it was enforced by the Law of Coverture.

In which ways would you say it was maintained?

It is maintained by the unequal power of women at every level of society. For example, in government, in the judiciary, in powerful positions in organisations, in the media. In the way women are objectified, in the way women are overrepresented in low paid, low status work. In the way women are the victims of sexual harassment and assault, domestic violence and as responsible for the majority of housework and caring work.

And are you differentiating between societies which are legally and structurally patriarchal ( where men auomatically have legal custody of children after divorce, or where a woman's word is worth less than that of a man in law etc) and western societies in which there is equal rights provision and protection in law?

In every country in the world, women are under the oppression of patriarchy. It is worse in some countries than it is in others, for example living under the Taliban is worse than living under Labour.

However, VAWAG has been declared a national emergency in the UK and we have one of the lowest rates of rape convictions. We have some of the most expensive childcare in Europe, women are on average poorer than men and so on. It's on a spectrum.

What is 'equality' if we don't already have it, in your view? What does it look like in practice?

Equality would be an equal distribution of power between the sexes. It would look like raising women out of poverty, equal responsibility for chores and childcare, women on parity with men in powerful positions and so on. The elimination of gender stereotypes would be wonderful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCshu
I feel like this ties together the 4B movement and @WoopsLiza's story, though it's not directly relevant to the OP.

If you feel beaten then imagine how frustrating it must be for men to never be able to win - because nothing they demand will ever be enough. Just carry on being the grit in their oyster until they grow up and stop throwing a tantrum because someone said No to them.

you're right, of course, @Thelnebriati (great name, i will join you) but right now with the Tickle/Giggle thing, the Afghan women, the horrendous amount of MVAWG in UK, Europe, the USA... i just feel very ground down.

Ground down to a grit that i will stick to their oysters. Thank you.

Esteemed American intellectual JD Vance got me thinking about this...

He said that the whole purpose of post-menopausal women was to raise their grandchildren. It turns out that menopause (other than just before natural death) is extremely rare in the natural world - the only other mammals to go through it are some species of Whale (including Orca and Beluga's).It has to serve an evolutionary purpose - in killer whales etc its linked to the fact that the Pods they live in are extended family groups so an older female sacrificing her own fertility to the survival of the group makes sense from an evolutionary perspective.

But the interesting thing is, older female killer whales aren't just "caring" for baby whales. They are the ones actually in charge of the group. Another way of looking at it is they are the libraries of the family group - with the most knowledge of fish migration patterns etc. That's probably also why women sometimes report feeling less inclined to be "nice" post meno.

So - probably the most "natural" way for humans to live is groups of extended family headed by post menopausal women. Obviously though we don't really live like that anymore - the agricultural revolution, then the industrial revolution etc shattered that. Also evolutionary biology doesn't actually mean you "should" do anything. As things are now, I quite like democracy with measures in place to stop the strongest (money/physical strength) monopolising power/abusing their power (patriarchy). But its interesting.

So it is some women defer to some men? I mean lots of women would tell a violent man to bugger off, lots of men aren't violent so a blanket statement that women do x because men do y is a bit of a sweeping statement. Is there a figure we have to get to so that it is OK to just blanket statement everyone?

It is funny if you compare it to the attitude to surrogates/egg donors/sperm donors and how horrific it is for a child not to know their history now suddenly a child only ever being able to know about one parent is a good thing.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

6 month compulsory paternity leave? Are you suggesting the woman goes back to work during this time? I would hate that and never agree to it. I took the full year and would've took more if I could. That idea of your seriously undermines any breastfeeding iniquities. Babies need their mothers.

I'll wait to be told I can't be a feminist and hold this view...yawn.

Initiatives *

What are your ideas and solutions?

But what if as in Denmark, you equalise representation, and the state provides cheap affordable childcare but women are still, generally making different choices and decisons to men, as studies show?

Even with free state childcare the people looking after the babies and toddlers of the women in F/T work are other women Plus,many women would like to be able stay at home and look after their children in the early years, especially - or want to reduce their hours to P/T if they are able.

I suspect a lot of what you are referring to as gender stereotypes are really the choices, preferences and decisions that people, and here we are talking about women, are making in their actual life.

I also suspect that unless you can find a way to do away with biological sex altogether then there will always remain differences between the sexes...and these differences will inevitably shape choices, preferences and therefore possibilities.

Equity or equality?

It could be at any time up to school age

Yawn

I'm tired of people dismissing everything out of hand without engaging brain.

Patriarchy is water

Women that stand against it are a dam.

We the undersigned... And those with vested interests...
Force cracks in that dam with purity tests.

Patriarchy will never end as women can't make a continuous and unbreaking dam against it.