Talking about Asian grooming gangs: some history and a few realities - Jo Phoenix

[IwantToRetire]

I'm not going to quote any part of this but thought some would find it interesting as Jo Phoenix describes the political context at the time different of different child sexual abuse scandals, that the media chose to report in different ways.

And looks at how feminist campaigning has had some sucess, over the decades, in terms of how exploited women and children are (meant) to be dealt with by authorities (police, social workers, etc.).

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/talking-about-asian-grooming-gangs

In the old days of Internet dial up I read a report that someone had compiled on a grooming gang in one Northern town. This man was so frustrated because noone took ang notice of him, the council, police, social stretching, noone, despite masses of evidence. He had put it online in the desperate hope that someone in authority would read it and act on it. We all know how that panned out.

That's so interesting and sad Harry
I remember, years ago, reading a book about a bunch of working class kids "Urban Grimshaw and the Shed Crew"
In passing the author noted that the nickname for "girls who sleep with Asians" was "Tony White Meat" and then said something like "These kids can be racist".
I remember thinking "That's a bit odd. Why "meat?""
Then years later hearing about the Rotherham scandal and thinking "Aha that's what that was"

That's a very good article. Thanks for linking to it.

I found this line poignant

To hold up the victims of Asian grooming gangs as somehow more offended against does a tremendous disservice to all the other young women who are raped, beaten and exploited by white men.

Jo herself was a victim in the states as a child wasn't she?

Thank you for this article.

Why do you say "Asian"? Weren't the British grooming gangs of Pakistani origin?

Interesting article. One thing is missing for me tho is an analysis of the characteristics of Asian grooming gangs versus white. It seemed like members of Asian gangs were connected via family links, I don't know if the same is true for white grooming gangs. I think it is really important to understand how these gangs operate so these men can be forced out into the light. If abusers are being shielded by their family it makes exposing them so much harder

Because Pakistan is an Asian country, and the people who want an easy racist story are too cute to say 'Pakistani' or 'Muslim' or even 'entitled male' outright.

That's a very powerful article, thank you for sharing.

I was a teenager in the 90s and I think we forget exactly how much public distain there was for girls who 'let themselves' be used by men.

As for TR. Men who talk about "our women" are not concerned with safeguarding. They are resource guarding.

Being born male is and always has been the common factor of abusers of females and children of both sexes

And I can understand why many females of all backgrounds try and mitigate that risk by pointing the finger out from their background to males from other backgrounds

Or indeed other females within their own background

There is an element of the bullied trying show strength and partisanship as means of deflecting the bullying away from them and onto someone else - ’do it to Julia’ sort of thing to save themselves

Females, regardless of backgrounds - colours of skin, place of birth, place of residence, belief systems, economic status, educational access/level, body type, age etc etc - are all at potential risk from males, regardless of the backgrounds or characteristics or belief systems of those males

We have to tackle male abuse of females

That is the bottom line

No point in saying it’s ‘it’s those males doing it not our ones’ when clearly and demonstrably our males have been abusing with impunity for decades and are continuing to do so

No point in saying ‘look at how much more our males have done to stop it’ when our males have conveniently left glaring loopholes for so many males to continue to abuse or have with our help designated particular females as not worth protecting or collateral damage or complicit in the abuse inflicted upon them by males

No saying ‘those males are bringing a culture of rape and abuse and misogyny to our community when our community has an established thriving culture of rape and abuse and misogyny all of it’s own already

Males are the problem - our Nigels, Keirs, Alis, Bens, Islas, Seans, Billys, Davids, their names and backgrounds don’t matter - their sex does

They are equally as likely to be interested in, involved in, complicit or excusing of male abuse of females even the ones who spout on about caring so much or doing so much for females

Even ones who have done good things may be a danger if we as females cast out some of our sisters as sacrifices ‘take this one she’s of no use to us - too loud, quiet, thin, fat, young, old, pretty, ugly, smart, stupid, too religious, not religious enough, ‘wrong’ religion, colour, birthplace, accent, political belief’

I don’t know if we can all work together - if we females can show ourselves and each other the same kindness we have shown males who have needed our help in navigating male on male abuse and violence due to colour, nationality, age, sexuality, religion, or other differences between them

But I hope we can, we have immense capacity to care for others, if we can direct that care to our fellow females and stop making the case for males of whatever background being the bogeymen or the white knights then maybe we have a chance

Massive essay but I get quite upset when I am left with the impression I am supposed to choose one ‘side’ over another when the only side I am on is XX and stopping XY violence against us

I remember when I was growing up, it not being unusual for teenagers to have much older boyfriends. There was a culture of the younger the better, when it came to girlfriends and men would congratulate each other on how young their girlfriend was. 16 year olds were on page 3 of national newspapers.

47 year old Bill Wyman had a 13 year old girlfriend. It was common for male celebrities to have sex with their teenage fans. Everyone turned a blind eye, it was seen as a perk of the job. I'm sure Saville had a caravan which he parked up and took his victims and people just stood by.

Victim blaming was part of the culture, if you were raped, you were asked how you let it happen. Date rape wasn't recognised and marital rape was legal.

Young girls who were vulnerable and exploited were seen as trash. And girls no matter how young, were accused of asking for it. There was a very famous court case where a judge called a 9 year old sexual abuse victim, 'no angel'. Her abuser got 4 months.

I wasn't surprised that the victims in Rotherham and elsewhere were blamed for being exploited. Rape is basically sanctioned in this country, we have one of the lowest conviction rates and perpetrators are becoming younger.

When the men from Rotherham had been sentenced and taken away. A woman journalist visited their women and families. The account of that shocked me.
The wives of the abusers were blaming the victims. "They instigated" "They dressed provocatively". The full asked for it, they led the men on. No blame on their men.
They live in Britain but in their head they are still in the village of their grandparents generation. That I think is a difference. I have never heard of wives and mothers of any other rapists deny what was so true.

In UK English we use Asian for people from the Indian subcontinent. I understand that is different in US English.

Was the Labour Party busy campaigning against fox-hunting at the time the abuses were reported and ignored?
That would have been a more "right-on" cause than working class English!

I know some British people use the word 'Asian' in this way, but it's bound to cause confusion. If you understand 'Asian' to mean 'from the Indian sub-continent' (or South Asian), what word do you understand to mean 'from Asia'?

They live in Britain but in their head they are still in the village of their grandparents generation. That I think is a difference. I have never heard of wives and mothers of any other rapists deny what was so true.

I have.

I also remember someone telling a story about Thanksgiving dinner with her partner's family. A male family member had just finished serving his sentence for rape and was with them at the dinner. She walked out when her partner's mother, sisters etc. started saying that the women had led him on, they'd all lied etc.

Years ago, I remember someone writing that everyone accepts the injustice of a rape complainant's sexual history being brought into a trial right up until the moment that it's their own son, brother, husband, partner in the dock or facing prosecution.

Protecting male family members by undermining women in such cases is common rather than otherwise.

I don't want to reproduce it here but people might remember the journalist Katie Razzall and the Badreddin family as an instance where an experienced journalist wanted to believe the men and their account rather than the women.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5025242-5025242-the-bbc-at-its-victim-blaming-best

I have never heard of wives and mothers of any other rapists deny what was so true.

Really? Not “she led him on,” not “what did she expect, going to his hotel room,” not “he’s a decent man,” not “he’s good looking, he doesn’t need to rape anyone,” not “she’s just saying it’s rape because her boyfriend found out?”

The amount of justification, excusing and minimising around rape is obscene, and not restricted to one ethnic group.

But the difference is that social services, police, teachers, GPs knew what was going on and blamed the girls for it so it is a double whammy

I guess it's not very often that we group people "from anywhere in Asia" together as it is such a vast and diverse continent.

That's the point of the article, that women and girls have consistently been blamed for their own sexual exploitation.

This victim blaming culture is systemic. In Rotherham for example, a report showed that every organisation involved denied what was happening and blamed the victims. It was found that because they were disadvantaged or working class, they were seen as to blame for what happened.

A police interview with one of the victims showed a police officer repeatedly asking the girl why she had got herself into the situation. The victims were seen as having made 'lifestyle choices'.

Phoenix sees everything through her leftist pro Starmer viewpoint. Maggie Oliver, who resigned from GMP and set up the Maggie Oliver Foundation is absolutely clear that it was gangs of Asian men who were targeting white girls.

It’s an inconvenient truth that Phoenix, from her cosy middle class white life in rural Suffolk has no direct experience of. I’m sick of academics dismissing the lived experience of working class women because it doesn’t fit with their political narrative.

When I lived in North America, Asian generally meant Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese.

When I lived in the U.K., Asian generally meant Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi.

Basically, it’s whichever part of Asia sent your area the most immigrants; in the U.K. it’s inevitably the former colonies who had a right to claim a British passport. In the U.S. it was those crossing the Pacific.

”From Asia” wasn’t something people said when referring to populations, it tended to be objects e.g. “this furniture is from Asia.” And it could mean anywhere in the continent.

@hallouminatus , I wouldn’t say “some British people” use it for people from the Indian subcontinent, I would say almost all British people understand it to mean that.

I don't entirely agree with her article, but just want to point out that Jo Phoenix is from Texas and is a rape survivor, she was raped at the age of 15. She ran away from home and was homeless so she hasn't had the sheltered middle class upbringing some of the academic types have.