Sex testing versus anti-doping testing

[hellotowel]

One thing I'm confused by is how anti-doping testing intersects with sex testing.

Let's say you have a male athlete in a women's competition. To be in that competition, he must have identified/registered his sex as female. Consider also that the male athlete has normal male levels of testosterone. If so, why does this not get flagged as a potential doping violation? As this is way outside of the normal range for female athletes.

I might be way off base here but I can only think of three possibilities:

1. when the sample is sent off for doping tests, the sex isn't included in the data given to the lab, and the lab just figures out the sex from analysing the genetic material of cells in the sample, comparing it to testosterone levels measured in the sample, or,
2. sex is included in the data given to the lab, but the lab doesn't directly check testosterone levels, instead looking for other chemicals that might be evidence of actual doping, or,
3. sex is included in the data given to the lab, and any discrepancy between this and the sample (doesn't match genetics of cells, isn't consistent with testosterone levels measured in sample) will be reported back as an anomaly, which then is disregarded by the organisation that requested the test

Which one is it, or, have I missed anything and it's none of these but something else?

I was thinking through this because I'm wondering how Imane Khelif passed the anti-doping tests in the IBA competitions, and in the Olympics right now. And also wondering how Caster Semenya - who is confirmed, by the CAS ruling, male with 5-ARD and normal male levels of testosterone - got through this when competing in 2016 Olympics, etc.

Thanks and hope it's okay to start a new thread on this, I didn't want it to get lost in the torrent of posts on the other thread. Would appreciate links to sourced information on this if anyone knows the answer!

I'm wondering how Imane Khelif passed the anti-doping tests in the IBA competitions, and in the Olympics right now.

I've been wondering that too. Surely there are defined testosterone levels for female boxers, and that would be part of the doping tests? If those two really are male and have more or less male levels of testosterone, they would be way over the limit in the female category.

also wondering how Caster Semenya - who is confirmed, by the CAS ruling, male with 5-ARD and normal male levels of testosterone - got through this when competing in 2016 Olympics, etc.

I think at one point Semenya was required to reduce T levels to something like the female limit. But I think that came in in 2019, so goodness knows why he was allowed to compete at Rio with high T levels.

He went to the CAS recently to argue that it was against his human rights to have to reduce his T level. He said it was discrimination, which the court agreed with but said it was justified discrimination to preserve the female catgeory.

This is what Wikipedia says about the rules:

2015 testosterone rule change

The IAAF policy on high natural levels of testosterone in women, that had been in place since 2011was suspended following the case of Dutee Chand v. Athletics Federation of India (AFI) & The International Association of Athletics Federations, in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, decided in July 2015. The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence.

So it would seem that there were no limits on T levels for women in Rio?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#2015_testosterone_rule_change

Thanks and hope it's okay to start a new thread on this, I didn't want it to get lost in the torrent of posts on the other thread. Would appreciate links to sourced information on this if anyone knows the answer!

Great idea for a thread. @Helleofabore is very well informed on this, especially Semenya etc.

Can I add another question please? I believe that urine samples have to be done in such a way that the drug tester can actually see pee come out…surely the testers are getting a pretty good view of the anatomy it’s coming out of…surely they would say something if that anatomy was a penis on a woman?

The IOC have specifically stated that they have not done testosterone level checks on these boxers. It was a question they were asked in a daily briefing.

Why bother with T levels at all? Just check for the XY.

So are they doing any doping testing? If it's absolutely fine to dope with testosterone - I mean, it must be, if they aren't testing for it - what else don't they care about it?

I suspect its a deliberate decision because they know its going to go badly if they do test

Do the drug tests for steroid use actually measure testosterone level or are the tests looking for by products of synthetic testosterone/steroids? For male athletes I can imagine that simply checking T levels would be sufficient to identify doping.

Does this mean that women can legitimately dope with testosterone? What about all those female E German Cold War athletes? IIRC the IOC refused to wipe their records when it was revealed that these women had been doped with testosterone and similar steroids throughout their careers. In which case why can't adult female athletes take statistics if they are willing to accept the health side-effects? After all, they accept the amenorrhea/RSI/Parkinsons risks that can be consequences of certain intense sports, so why should T be any different?

If the IOC aren't bothered by women's T levels, why is the rest of the world?

If any athlete is allowed to dope because it gives them an advantage, then other athletes will feel the need to dope in order to be competitive. That means every athlete will have to take the risks that come with doping.

I think World Athletics has restrictions on T levels in the women’s category now.

It’s bizarre that there don’t seem to be any restrictions in women’s boxing, a contact sport.

What an interesting question, especially if it is true that testosterone is not tested for.
In that case, if the IOC really only wants a passport to prove someone is eligible for women’s sports, and levels of testosterone or having a male body don’t come into the evaluation, then that could be the end of the female category. It is difficult to believe.

Athletics has no testosterone limit for women - it's deemed unnecessary because high natural T is not an advantage for women - it's the result of a health problem.

High T would be a flag for a doping check, but if it was found to be natural, then no problem.

They do impose a T limit for male DSD athletes, when I think most of us here think they should just be barred outright.

I can imagine that IOC logic might agree with the 'no T limit for women' rule, but apply it to all passport women, despite that making no sense. It's natural!

^They do impose a T limit for male DSD athletes, when I think most of us here think they should just be barred outright*

But why would they impose a T limit for a male DSD athlete they think is a woman?

But why would they impose a T limit for a male DSD athlete they think is a woman?

I was describing the World Athletics rules, which clearly distinguish 46XX and 46XY individuals. And those are in force for Olympic athletics events, as the IOC lets World Athletics run them.

I agree IOC logic has no reason to worry about DSDs. But maybe they might need special rules about badly printed passports?

Thanks for answering my question.

What do you mean by “badly printed passports”?

In the case of some athletes with DSDs, including XY and male-strengthed people,
their passport could perfectly legally say F (because of how they appeared at birth) and therefore put them in the Female category for Olympic Women’s Boxing, couldn’t it?

What do you mean by “badly printed passports”?

My attempt at a joke. Just as people with sex categories have to deal with disorders of sex development, people with passport categories would have to deal with printing errors. What if you can't make out if it's an M or F, or if it's a county that permits X?

Boxing is not athletics - it's run by the IOC's 'Paris Boxing Unit', and, yes, anyone who has an F in their passport qualifies, no matter what their country's rules on that are. Quite a few counties including the UK permit self ID already in general, but if a country wanted to issue a passport specially to let a boxer compete, that's currently fine.

If countries thought these rules would still be in force in 2028, they would be negligent to not make an effort to field an all-male boxing squad. Self ID countries would have a clear advantage, not having to find DSD individuals, or persuade the authorities to issue special passports.

I guess national sporting bodies could institute their own rules compelling female selection even when the international rules permit male, but they would be hobbling their medal chances and endangering their competitors.

Women have to hope that these rules can't stay in force until 2028.

So the WADA list says that testosterone doping is banned

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/prohibited-list?page=0&q=testosterone&all=1
But as there is no easy way to tell if testosterone is 'natural' they look at other substances to show that the testosterone level was caused by doping

" the IOC adopted in 1983 a ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone glucuronides (T/E) with an authorised upper limit of 6.0 as a criterion for the administration of testosterone"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657495/

So I guess, if your "high for a woman" value is all naturally created with no external help, then you would not fail testosterone testing unless your sport had set a ceiling on testosterone concentration for participation in the sport.

My attempt at a joke. Just as people with sex categories have to deal with disorders of sex development, people with passport categories would have to deal with printing errors. What if you can't make out if it's an M or F, or if it's a county that permits X?

Ah, thank you. I understand now. 😃