Mixed sex boxing - Patricio Manuel (transman, boxing with biological men)

[RainWithSunnySpells]

I can't find much information about the loss, just a lot about Manuel's initial wins. One thing is for sure though, mixed-sex boxing is happening beyond this Olympic scandal and I'm horrified.

https://sports.yahoo.com/transgender-boxer-patricio-manuel-disappointed-123746108.html?guccounter=1

'Patricio Manuel remained defiant after he suffered the first loss of his career last week. The first out transgender boxer in U.S. history was knocked out by Joshua Bryan Reyes 21 seconds into a bout in Indio, Calif., on April 4. Despite the quick exit, Manuel took to social media to assure fans he was not going to hide or step away from the ring.'

'Manuel was a five-time U.S. national champion in the amateur women’s division. When a shoulder injury forced his withdrawal from the women’s boxing trials for the 2012 Olympics, Manuel took the opportunity to embrace his gender identity.'

For me the issue is one of consent and fairness. A female choosing to enter the men’s competition is not the same as males entering the female competition…

But I do think that trans men in men’s boxing opens up another interesting dimension. For example, how do the men feel about it? Do they hold back because they know they are fighting a female? Is there increased liability if the trans man is seriously injured? It’s not the same as eg running, when a trans man can compete in the men’s and there’s no risk the men will hurt them by running faster. I suspect that some male boxers will be very concerned about the men’s category becoming mixed sex…

Those are interesting points I hadn't considered.

I agree on the ‘consent and fairness’ basis. However, surely the boxing authority has some responsibility for safeguarding of the individual?

Why is it acceptable for this athlete to dope?

I agree, "he" shouldn't be able to take banned substances.

From memory looking into this previously, post-transition she initially fought men who were absolutely hopeless in order to give the “see, no difference!” idiots “proof” that men and women can be in sport together. She was clearly a good boxer given her record, so it’s not surprising that she could easily beat men of a lower stature. It’s concerning that this gave the false impression she was up to the task and has risked her safety coming up against someone halfway decent.

I agree that it is completely unfair to force male boxers to fight a biological female regardless of gender ID and whatever else.
Consent matters both ways imo.

Look at us man-hating harridans concerned that men should have the same autonomy to give informed consent that we demand for ourselves. How outrageous that we think similar behavioural standards should be applied to both sexes. Is this the way rights-hoarding dinosaurs behave?

yeah, I wouldn't pretend to have even a passing knowledge of Sr. Manuel's career, but this video here shows 'him', under the influence of more steroids than the combined entirety of the world wrestling roster, up against a by the looks of it untrained Vietnamese-American 'fighter' who's easily 5 inches shorter and a couple of stones lighter... it proves less than nothing.

🤣🤣🤣

I think there is no problem for the transman to choose to compete with men. They have consented to do so.

I think it opens up ethical problems for different reasons. How do men feel fighting a biological woman (albeit with higher testosterone)?

That's the point isn't it. Consent works both ways, both parties need to consent for it to be valid.

And here is one of the reasons why language matters. Who are (or us?) ' they'?

...are (or is?) 'they'?

'They' in my post refers to any transman who has chosen to fight with men (real or hypothetical).

Whether other people also need to consent (natal men) is another matter.

The IOC's policy of inclusion before anything else also raises other questions.

If it's fine for someone (male) to have physical advantage because of an F on their passport then how do they deal with inclusion the other way - when someone (female) has physical disadvantage but an M on their passport.

If inclusion at all costs is really the goal then shouldn't the IOC be taking steps to include female people with a male passport in men's sports?

For example they could do a mathematical equation to work out the degree of disadvantage then level the playing field by giving that person for example, a 2 lap head start in the longer distance men's running or a minute head start in swimming etc.

Does anyone think we will see this happening?

Logically that would make sense but it will never happen because in reality all of this is just a male agenda and everyone know who everyone really is. Men get advantage and women don't - however any of them identify. It's just a massive pile of sexist bs. Same stuff in different clothes.
I expect I'll get deleted but I just don't care.

I agree. I was being sarcastic really. I don't think my proposal will ever come to fruition!

Yes I know. Sorry.

Consent from both parties is a really important point but...

I'll be honest, even if the male and the trans identified female boxers all consented to mixed sex boxing in the male category I'd still be against it.

The danger to the female boxer is still present. No matter how she identifies she is still of the female sex.

I have a son in his 20’s who is an amateur boxer (which I hate but that’s a whole other thread)

We were talking about this a couple of nights ago after everything that has happened with the 2 men boxing in the female category at the olympics.

He hasn’t come across a trans ‘man’ yet but he has said if he did he would refuse to box and forfeit the match.

The idea of hitting a woman, even in the name of sport, is horrifying to him.

The idea of hitting a woman, even in the name of sport, is horrifying to him.

Good lad, he's spot on!

And if he did forfeit out of common decency and knowledge that he could really hurt/kill someone, there would be no fairness for him in that scenario either. He'd have been cheated out of a bout just for being a good person and doing the right thing.

Would it be recorded as a loss on his record too?

And then if so he's cheated on that front too, and I assume there would be a knock on effect for opportunities like sponsorships etc as well?

This is precisely the kind of scenario I was musing on when I wrote my post earlier. And if your son forfeited the match, it would affect his own match record - which is where the fairness comes in.

It’s almost as if we have sex categories for a reason. Fancy that!

There are reports (from sources entirely captured sympathetic to Manuel) that between 2016 and 2018 "he" spent months at a time traveling to amateur exhibitions, weighing in, only to watch "his" opponents refuse to get into the ring with "him".

Manuel has only ever had 4 fights - 3 wins, against boxers with mostly losses in their history, and this loss.

From which we can conclude that men do not wish to fight Manuel.

Edited for clarity.