I have a question

[FloralPunk]

If somebody has DSD, and knows they are male, but presents as a woman for, say, the purposes of competing in female sport, why then, are they not transgender?

Because they are male. They dont care how they win and who they trample on.

Thats a very expensive question ;)

If somebody has XX chromosomes, and knows they are female, but presents as a man [using clothing and behaviour stereotypes] for, say, the purposes of avoiding male sexualised attention and the imposition of feminine stereotypes upon them, why then, are they not transgender?

• Unless they claim they are.

You are expecting honesty, consistency, rationality from dishonest, inconsistent, irrational people. Can't even call it an ideology or a worldview in this case, as those require some coherent internal consistency.

In fairness, my understanding is that these two boxers have DSDs. In any developed nation this would have been picked up at birth. It wasn't and they were brought up female - though I assume at puberty it became pretty clear they weren't. Tests then revealed that they were male.

So they have never transitioned. They were literally wrongly assigned at birth (ironic huh?)

The trans umbrella does try to capture intersex/people with DSDs and tries to make capital out of it being some kind of 3rd sex/intermediate state. People with DSDs often object to this. Of course DSDs aren't a mysterious 3rd sex. Everyone is either male or female. They might be a disordered male or female but they are definitely one or the other.

Thanks. Yes what I mean is, if they now know they are actually male ( sounds like they do, based on previous testing) they are actually identifying as the opposite sex, making them trans.
My mind is currently boggled!
@Omlettes I am not sure what you mean by expensive question?

I feel sorry for them, it's not their fault they're dsd, but they shouldn't be in women's sports, and certainly not boxing!

They're male.

They know they're male.

They identify as women.

Isn't that the very definition of transwomen?

Sorry, I was far too oblique. Referring to the malleable categories and the money to be made defining themselves one way or another. Ditto the IOC and its money trails.

I think it may come down to choice. They've been raised female despite not being, so didn't choose that or know. Obviously in the boxers cases they now know, so they are actively choosing to continue as women so I think they are trans. People with their condition who haven't been tested and raised as female.from birth, not so much.

So the boxers weren't trans in my.mind until they failed the chromosome test. Having failed.it and persisted in the raised gender, they now are, does that make any sense?

A great response to all this from the IBA , especially the last bit, my bolds.

"As stated, the International Boxing Association (IBA) feels it appropriate at this prevalent time, to address recent media statements regarding those athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif, particularly regarding their participation in the Paris Olympic Games 2024.

We wish to make the following points in these regards:
On 24 March 2023, IBA disqualified athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships New Delhi 2023.

This disqualification was a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition, as set and laid out in the IBA Regulations. This decision, made after a meticulous review, was extremely important and necessary to uphold the level of fairness and utmost integrity of the competition.

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.

The decision made by IBA on 24 March 2023, was subsequently ratified by the IBA Board of Directors on 25 March 2023. The official record of this decision can be accessed on the IBA website here IBA Board of Directors Meeting Minutes.
The disqualification was based on two tests conducted on both athletes as follows:

• Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul 2022.
• Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi 2023.

For clarification

• Lin Yu-ting did not appeal the IBA’s decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), thus rendering the decision legally binding.
• Imane Khelif initially appealed the decision to CAS but withdrew the appeal during the process, also making the IBA decision legally binding.

Our Committees have rigorously reviewed and endorsed the decision made during the World Championships. While IBA remains committed to ensuring competitive fairness in all of our events, we express concern over the inconsistent application of eligibility criteria by other sporting organizations, including those overseeing the Olympic Games. The IOC’s differing regulations on these matters, in which IBA is not involved, raise serious questions about both competitive fairness and athletes’ safety.

For clarification on why the IOC permits athletes with competitive advantages to compete in their events, we urge interested parties to seek answers directly from the IOC.
Yours sincerely,
International Boxing Association

This article has a photo of him as a child, it would seem as though he was intersex.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/imane-khelif-olympics-boxer-trans-debate-gender-carini-b2590229.html

Intersex is not a thing. You are male with a dsd or female with a dsd.

This is one situation where assigned sex at birth applies. They aren't transgender because they were assigned female at birth in error. They are biologically male and have gone through male puberty. I have a great deal of sympathy for people with dsd, my own partner has a dsd and finding out is tough and how it impacts your life, however they do not belong in women's sports. I have less sympathy for certain individuals who get in a ring and hit biological women and call it sport and a fair fight.

I presume the boxers present as male the rest of the time when they aren't punching women for fun sport?

I don't know if they do or not, but If they "present as a woman" during their ordinary lives, like shopping for baps or whatever, then I'm sorry but I can't see how these people who know full well they're men, aren't transwomen.

What I don't understand is how having grown up female they don't see how a man in woman's sport is unfair? Were thy socialised female or not? Their behaviour is very male now

In any developed nation this would have been picked up at birth.

Taiwan is a highly developed nation (Human Development Index sxore os 0.925, the same as South West England; the UK as a whole scores 0.929) with one of the best medical systems in the world.

There are various interpretations that can be put on this fact, if taken in isolation.

From what I have seen of their social media, they do both choose to present as male outside of the ring, not as TW.

In these cases, I'd say they're not "trans" because they haven't actually transitioned. As in, they haven't changed how they identify and present themselves from one thing to another.

To be trans, or at least to consider themselves trans and be recognised as such by the wider trans community, usually they will have experienced transition in some shape or form, be it social or medical. I just can't see what such people would have in common with trans people unless they actively identified as non-binary or viewed their experience of gender through that lens. I'm sure some do, but I don't know anyone specific to ask.

Considering many people with DSDs I've heard of continue to identify as their assigned sex at birth and don't consider themselves trans, it's clear that the concept of the "trans experience" just doesn't resonate with many such people. Surely those who "transition" to match their chromosomal sex have more in common with trans people, as I imagine elements of coming out and the transition process share a lot of similarities?

Well in that case they aren't transwomen. They're just bog standard cheating men (as opposed to "special" cheating men).
Infuriating.

It's all smoke and mirrors isn't it?

If someone is wrongly observed to be female at birth they will have f on their passport and will be legally female. If they maintain that they "identify" as female as an adult they have not really made any sort of a transition. This is why TRAs insist that these males are "cis women" and why officials claim they were born female. Essentially they are not "trans" because they have not changed anything.

Meanwhile back in reality it's obvious that these males were mistakenly observed to be female at birth.

Out of the ring....

Thankyou Frazzled, quite clear that they are both well aware of their actual sex…

I’d say that would make him a cheat?

If somebody has DSD, and knows they are male, but presents as a woman for, say, the purposes of competing in female sport, why then, are they not transgender?

To all intents and purposes I think if they are male and have developed as a man (so virilised) but are claiming to be actually female, it's exactly the same as a male claiming he "feels" female.

Sorry meant to quote OP