Mother's gender non-conforming life makes young person wonder if transitioning is necessary

[IwantToRetire]

Elisabeth Mann Borgese the youngest and dearly loved daughter of Nobel Prize laureate Thomas Mann at 13 (see picture below). She often told me stories about her childhood and of how, during those early years, she would have liked to be a boy. This desire may have been in part caused by her early ambitions, as she was aware of the fact that girls were considered intellectually inferior to men, by society and by her father, too. However, her discomfort started already at the age of 4-5 years, so by today's standards she might have been considered to be affected by gender dysphoria and offered hormonal treatment during adolescence.

My mother turned out to be quite a fulfilled, albeit atypical, woman. Although she wrote on the problems and roles of women in society (Acsent of Woman, 1963, New York, G. Braziller), she never really identified with those of her gender, had little empathy for women's liberation movements and got along with men better than with women. I myself, as a very young child, was (proudly) aware of how, with her straight short brown hair and absence of makeup, she markedly differed from the other moms, whose lipstick, permed hair and fashionable clothes seemed to me to belong to another, less appealing, world.

My mother was attracted and attractive to men, wanted children, married and gave birth to me and my sister early (at 22 and 26 years). After the death of my father, she fell in love again more than once (always with men), and had some lasting heterosexual relationships during her lifetime. During her entire life, she pursued her broad range of interests and her ideals. She loved family, friends, dogs, enjoyed playing the piano, cooking, skiing, eating and drinking well in good company. At the professional level, inspired by her collaboration with my father in support of world government during the post-World War II years, she became a recognized expert on international ocean management, leaving a lasting legacy on ocean governance and on the rights of developing countries to access its resources. With her soft charisma, she was able to impress her idealistic vision on professionals of the international organizations where she worked and where she was known as "the mother of the oceans".

Although one can only speculate as to how things would have gone had my mother transitioned, my feeling is that the quality of her life would have been a lot worse than it turned out to be; indeed she had a rich and fulfilling life, both at the personal and professional level, thanks to a unique personality that served her well.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/being-awake-better/202407/gender-dysphoria-is-self-acceptance-an-option

When I first read this article I almost gasped because the mother described seems like many women I knew / was aware of when growing up. And know some today.

And now a few decades later the daughter seems to think this is unique, and unexpected. Its almost like those growing up in the past few decades have been subjected to traditional notions of sex roles and performance that make the 50s seem almost liberated.

So how is it that something that was once accepted, if not that common has now become the centre of a whole medical industry and a highly destructive campaign group.

NB this is just part of a much longer article, but just couldn't bring myself to focus on the psychology bits!

Also you just can't translate attitudes to sexuality to today.

Thomas Mann was a gay man who spent his life suppressing his attraction to men. He also was specifically attracted to young men (and even his son).

He was also very open about how he thought women and girls were inferior to men and boys. He wrote about how disappointed he was that he'd had a daughter after one was born.

Growing up in that kind of house, it's not really surprising that a girl would show signs very young that she would like to be a boy.

It's not a trans identity, it's an obvious reaction to the parenting she was experiencing.

However the ultimate message of the article is great as it suggests accepting that expressing your own unique personality in your birth sex is likely to lead to a happier life than transitioning.

In thinking women inferior, Thomas Mann was following fairly common male homosexual attitudes to women, sadly. Not surprised his daughter wanted to be a boy.

But as the thread on FWR about how many of us wanted to be a boy, or more commonly wanted to do what boys were allowed to do, I dont think anyone can say it is because of who this woman's father was.

And anyway misses the point of the article.

Which is that this women who had been quite boyish, grew up to be a woman and a mother, but didn't conform to gender stereotypes.

Which in fact was / is not that unusual in that period of time.

What is unusual is that her daughter thought it unusual.

That the trans agenda about needing to change "sex" rather than not being gender non conforming, indicates that somehow young people have grown up in a more straightlaces, gender role model environment.

Well for me that it is the point, that her mother was able to be gender non conforming, be sucessful and accepted.

And her daughter thinks it strange.

What a sad, narrow minded world young people seem to have grown up in and accepted.

Sure. If you think of communist countries pre-1990 for example (East Germany etc) or North Korea or somewhere like that now, being non-gender-conformist was/seems to be totally ok. Think of East Germany Olympic athletes for example.

Like you, I knew many women like how the author describes her mother when I was growing up.

I'm not sure whether this is to do with whether people feel male or female though. I think it's to do with a cultural/ societal climate where a person's contribution to society/community is valued over what they look like/ following particular gender norms. E.g. for me being a woman is a super low priority part of my identity, I see everyone the same no matter what gender they are, but it seems like for many people that's a really high priority identifier.

That seems to describe most women I know and grew up around, apart from the high-profile career - most had/have careers but not necessarily as influential. I don’t know about their childhoods, but lots wore no makeup and pursued their hobbies alongside jobs and families. Perhaps that’s an indicator of class, or having the time and money to do that.

I wonder if it’s also internalised misogyny or some belief that most women aren’t rounded individuals? Or that if they wear makeup or have children they go into this category of “woman” that’s inferior. If a woman has interests outside of womanly things they must be really a man, no women truly have a wide range of interests like men do.

Female East Germany Olympic athletes were all doping with testosterone

I think that while I would say this regression in terms of an individuals right to not conform to social "norms" has been terrible for women and, there is no doubt that it is also harming boys as the grow up.

I just dont understand why on one level with greater acess to a whole range of different ways of living compared to those growing up with the internet, and maybe on radio and no tv, seemed able to imagine and act out a different way of life than the one society implied was the norm, that young people today are so conformist. They may see those involved as actors or singers being able to "break boundaries" but most are gender conforming and even reactionary.

Is it in fact an information overload, that faced with endless possibilities, most chicken out and just revert to a "traditional" idea of what being a boy or a girl means.

I feel sort of sad for them.

"about how many of us wanted to be a boy, or more commonly wanted to do what boys were allowed to do,"

This. This is the bit that should be questioned. It's so wrong. What do you now think a child these days wants to do, that they can't do. That transitioning would be the solution?

It is non symmetric - the things girls and women are/were prevented from doing are many and various, and not, except in the most religiously conservative countries, about clothes and appearance.

Boys and men have vast choices and few limits.

Gender identity is an evil trick that has been played on us all. It makes kids think they are being cool and fighting against sterotypes whilst really making them conform - if only they could wake up and see it.

Both my mother and her sister wanted to be boys when growing up.

Born just after ww2.

I think it was very common, Mann's influence aside. My mum was closer to her father than her mother.

Those example are true but also abusive of women. East Germany gave its female athletes testosterone, which had devastating effects on them as they grew older. Places such as N. Korea and China, which treated women exactly like men caused great suffering since they took no account of women's lesser strength (there is a thread going about how strong 12 year old boys are compared to their mothers, even when mothers are 6ft and heavier than their son), and ignored the effects of menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and its aftermath, so that many women were worked to exhaustion, had miscarriages and stillbirths.
The sort of gender nonconformity described of Thomas Mann's daughter is not of that ilk, but was entirely normal in the 1950s and 60s, in tandem with the 'housewife' model. Many of my teachers (all girls school) were gender nonconforming in this way and it was totally ok.
Thomas Mann's attitude towards women is typical of many gay men - even those who include women in their social circles.

That’s most of the women I know today. We are in early toddler years, juggling work, life and self. We don’t have time for makeup 99% of the time. And no one cares. Some are quite martyr-y but most do make time for ourselves and have hobbies and interests which take them out the home.

This is normal no?

”Boy stuff” had higher status when growing up. That combined with having an older brother probably had the most influence on my being inclined towards choosing climbing trees over playing with dolls and science instead of art. I sometimes wonder if there’s something biological, like hormone profile, but nature vs nurture is one of the oldest questions around and one that we’ll never fully be able to solve.

my parents were fine with how I was, though my mum did like any opportunity to put me in a dress ( and still does). I had no real angst about it and I wasn’t abnormal back then.

it’s a real shame that younger people are so entrenched in stereotypes. It’s really hard to explain to them that it’s something in modern culture that’s led to this and it’s completely unnecessary. That said, it’s never been as easy for boys to not conform.

it’s a real shame that younger people are so entrenched in stereotypes. It’s really hard to explain to them that it’s something in modern culture that’s led to this and it’s completely unnecessary.

Absolutely.

How is it that no one else sees it as regressive. (I appreciate that this is probable a western consumer countries issue)

Is it that rather than any deep or society having a bit of a wobble, that in fact it has as much to do with how products are advertised (and before there were influencers) various stars would be promoted by the media as role models (when in fact all any of us say was a PR creation).

ie that people intent on selling us things have created a false reality, which unfortunately younger people are more susceptible to this false narrative.

For me this is what stood out in the article.

That the daughter thought her mother was unique.

Yes, but the daughter (Dominica/Nica Borgese) was born in 1944, so is 80 this year. I agree with your point that younger people have been brainwashed about gender roles, but it's not new.

Thanks - I hadn't registered the dates.

So maybe far from my saying these young women just dont know anything, this is an older woman, using her mother as an example to say, look it is possible to be gender non conforming.

Mabye I should have included this paragraph from the article:

Dr. Nica Borgese is a Chicago-born cell biologist from the Institute of Neuroscience of the National Research Council in Milan, Italy, and the granddaughter of Nobel Prize laureate Thomas Mann. Borgese shared a personal story with me below about her mother’s experience of moving beyond gender stereotypes and living into non-stereotyped roles. By sharing this story, Borgese hopes to foster healthy discussion that is inclusive and kind toward self and others.