Mandated to give my ten year old's pronouns - how to respond

[Gofastboatsmojito]

I've recently had to fill in a form for my daughter's hobby, she's joining a group to rehearse and perform which builds on the standard teaching class.

As part of this I had to fill in a form which asked for her gender and her preferred pronouns. She's 10 FFS, and her school luckily don't go in for teaching gender ideology, sticking to a more factual PSHE curriculum. So she hasn't got a gender or pronouns.

I've filled the form in because I don't want her to miss out on this further opportunity, and I have no reason to believe the group, which is council run, are gender ideologues. I think they're just trying to be modern / some secondary children also do this hobby so maybe there have been requests from older children's parents.

I'd like to email my contact, who I email relatively often, expressing why this question is problematic.

How does the below sound? I'd like to add something about Cass but I'm not sure what the best point to include woukd be at very grateful for your ideas.

Preferred pronouns is a mandatory field (with only 3 choices! She/her, He/him, They/them - not very inclusive) but ethnicity has about 5 different questions where you can choose an Asian ethnicity or n/a, a Black ethnicity or n/a, a White non-European ethnicity or n/a, White European, or just opt out entirely. Its a badly designed form tbh.

Thanks

I hope you don't mind a little bit of feedback. I'm not happy being asked for my child's gender or pronouns. She doesn't have a gender or pronouns, she has a sex (female).

Asking for pronouns is akin to asking for a religion without giving the option of 'none', so I respectfully suggest you consider adding 'no preferred pronouns' or similar to the list of options, or adding an 'opt out' as you do for ethnicity

It is a big deal, because it confuses instead of clarifying and making communication easier, it allows people to lie about their sex - and we see every day how that helps men erode women's rights.

I don't agree that it's easy or reasonable to expect everyone around you to change a fundamental of language, used to describe the world around you, because you 'prefer' the sound of one word over the other.

I certainly don't think we should be requiring 10 year olds to buy into the idea that it is reasonable, nor that they should think they have the power to make everyone bow to it.

Frankly, these days we live in a world where they absolutely may have, whether you think it’s a good idea or not. Organisations are just trying to be inclusive, even of relatively small minorities.

The daughter wasn’t even filling out this form, her parent/guardian was, so the question was asked as a matter of courtesy, nothing more.

Pandering to lies and delusions isn't courtesy.

this particular linguistic preference

It's not just that though, is it?

A man who "prefers she" is telling people to pretend he's a woman.

Pina - but you didn’t ‘prefer’ people to refer to you as ‘she’, you just knew that that was correct grammar for your sex - if they said he they either had a poor understanding of grammar or were for some reason unable to tell what sex you were. The mistake was theirs and not in your control.

I do understand this and agree on some levels, but it's not really asking them to choose. A parent can easily fill it in and put that their child is known as she/ he. It really doesn't need to be a complicated question.

I work with children and young people, and it's becoming quite hard to know how to refer to them.

Even if you think someone looks female/ male it's easy to get it wrong, and when you have to write notes about that person, you need to use a third person pronoun.

There are a large number of young people who go by 'they' at the moment. Whether or not that's right or wrong or whatever your opinion on it, it's just basic respect to get it right and address them correctly, in the same way as you would want to get their name right.

Asking their preferred pronouns just makes it easier to know what they want to be known as. It's not meant to offend.

95+ percent of people are simply going to choose the pronouns that match their child’s birth sex and the very small number of people for whom this is actually an issue for their child are going to feel relieved and included.

It’s possible to believe in both biology and inclusiveness. This is the least important territory when it comes to being gender critical.

Yes - therefore I prefer people to refer to me as 'she' - therefore that was/ is my preferred pronoun. It's not a big deal.

It's still pandering to lies. Doesn't matter who's asking (or more often, demanding) it. Pronouns are sex-based, not a matter or preference (and humans are male or female, it's not a pick-and-mix stall). And none of this is benign. Look at women having to go to court because some man is raging that they won't call him "she". Look at courts insisting women call their rapists "she".

I would also question why providing information about preferred pronouns is compulsory. Data about religion/ethnicity/disabilities/sexual orientation/gender reassignment etc which are protected characteristics under the EA2010, can be collected for monitoring purposes whereas gender identity is not a protected characteristic.

Providing information on your protected characteristics is generally optional but being compelled to give information on gender identity never seems to be, particularly when there is never an option to tick 'none' or 'I don't believe in gender identity'.

Pina - but for loads of people it would be highly offensive to ask ‘their pronouns’. I’m a small woman with big tits and a female name, if anyone asks me ‘my pronouns’ I’ll think they are taking the piss, very stupid or implying that I look like a man, which is frankly rude. Luckily no one has asked me this because I don’t know how I’d reply, but it wouldn’t be polite. It is much more sensible to behave normally and assume that looks like a female is a female, and if we get it wrong I’m very confident that the gender confused person will tell us very quickly.

It's amazing that for so many centuries the world has turned and folk have survived without announcing to all and sundry, their preferred pronouns.

And suddenly ...

I thought your response was fine at first, op but it looks like it might offer too many opportunities to derail and prevaricate. So I would be more direct about your concerns and yes, I would refer to Cass straight away.

Something along the lines of:
'Given that your form has already ascertained my child's sex, I can only conclude that your question about pronouns is a reference to gender identity.
'Why is this a mandatory question?
'May I remind you what the Cass Review says about the social transitioning of children:
(Insert relevant extract)'

I suspect that OP has used the word 'mandated' a bit flippantly. Her daughter has joined a hobby group. I doubt that they would make a big deal of it being left blank if OP strongly feels that way. A hobby group form isn't exactly a legal document.

Organisations are just trying to be inclusive, even of relatively small minorities.

//

Or the fashionable minorities. I'm pretty sure such allowances aren't made to accommodate all people who have a genuine non-feelz based need

My daughter does not have preferred pronouns. There are sex based pronouns which it is obvious most people would use for her because she is female, but she has not chosen these and she has not stated how she wishes others to talk about her in the third person

So would she be happy to be called "he"?

I don't mind people telling me their pronouns. I do mind them being offended if I get it wrong. I can't be expected to remember everyone's pronouns if they don't match up with their sex. I just don't have the brain power.

Probably not, because she is female. So it wouldn't be accurate or proper use of a pronoun.
She has no choice about her sex, which is what decides the correct pronouns to use when referring to her.
Preferred pronouns are an invention of gender ideology.

@ColinMyWifeBridgerton
Maybe direct that question at the person you've quoted?

Like it or not, people who are 'trans' (questions of biology aside) have existed forever and will continue to exist long after the 'fashionable' aspect has passed.

Responses like this make me feel embarrassed to 'identify as' gender critical as there is no fucking nuance or care for others as human beings.

They probably have one form to cover everything, councils are cash strapped and spending money on several different kind of forms that do the same thing is unreasonable.

I think you are making too big of a deal over it.

Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make but unable to offer an alternative as I was on the nursery run!

At the end of the day, OP is writing an email of complaint, not opening an academic debate on gender vs. sex. So if she wants to drive meaningful action then the email needs to be direct and unambiguous.

The earliest recorded use of a gender neutral pronoun was in the 14th century.

She doesn't use she/her to refer to herself. Others will use them as a normal part of grammar.

The difference with hair colour is that colour is an adjective used to describe something. Her hair might be a specific colour but the adjective, like the pronouns, is generic and not specific to the individual.