A pronoun conundrum

[Daffydaff]

My husband has joined an American football league for LGBT+ & allies (he just wanted to join a sports club, to be honest, the LGBT bit wasn't sought out). On the welcome form it's asking him for his preferred pronouns, with an asterisk so he has to write something.

I just rolled my eyes so hard at this that I gave myself a headache - as I said to him, making it mandatory to insert these 'preferred pronouns' is like asking what your religion is but not giving any option for atheist.

Now, he knows my strong opinions on gender identity, and although he generally gets it, I don't think he's particularly bothered by putting he/him, as he's new to the league and doesn't want to rock the boat. And fair enough - I don't want to make him a guinea pig.

FWIW it isn't a drop down box so he could just write 'prefer not to say', and I know in the grand scheme of things this is pretty inconsequential, but my anger towards all this bollocks is increasing daily so I wanted some perspective / to hear others thoughts / to vent about the inanity of preferred pronouns.

It seems to be something you are worried about more than him, maybe if he's not happy with the groups approach maybe don't join. I do think it kind of goes with the territory here. It's a free text box, so just type prefer not to say if this is how he feels . I'd put Mr , but if I felt like I needed to write something that sent a message, I'd just go elsewhere.

You think most men would be fine going about their daily life with people continuously referring to them as 'she'?

Of course they'll ask that. There's bound to be at least a couple trans/nb people there by nature of their audience. It would be awkward if you met people and weren't immediately sure on sight what they were identifying with.
I'd imagine if he joined a regular club it would be mainly men and they wouldn't ask that.

I/me/we/us. Those are the pronouns I use for myself. As to what pronouns other people should use when mentioning me, it would be highly presumptuous of me to impose my will.

It's a bit worrying if your husband is anxious about what to answer ,not based on his own strong views but because he's so aware of your view on it.

But people won't hand a copy of their application form to each member they meet. So actually it does nothing to avoid the problem, except perhaps in club newsletters.

You think most men would be fine going about their daily life with people continuously referring to them as 'she'?

Can't speak for men, but I was continually misgendered as a child and was entirely unbothered by it (most of the time I was 20% waterproofs and wellies and 80% mud, so it was fair enough that people made random guesses; I did roll my eyes at the ones who asked when I was wearing a dress). I've recently been called 'sir' by a couple of peole at hotel receptions, and just shrugged and considered them a bit dim.

Why would people be continuously doing that if it wasn't malicious?

I am gender critical. But this thread is stupid.

His pronouns are he/him. He’s a man. He’s not being asked to wear a badge with it on, or put it in an email signature. You know it’s just on the form so that people with funky pronouns have somewhere to put theirs.

Also he’s chosen to join an LGBTQ+ and allies team. Of COURSE they will ask for pronouns. Really silly to expect them not to.

You can protest about being asked to provide pronouns at work, wear them on a sticker at a training event, state them at the start of a meeting, etc etc. But complaining when he’s sought out a specifically queer space is ludicrous.

Also much that I don’t agree with non-binary etc, I think if you’re going to seek out a queer-friendly space, you have to be respectful. It’s really not on, otherwise.

How could it be malicious if he'd stated that he didn't care which pronouns people use?

Or do you mean that actually he does care which pronouns are used - like most people?

No, I mean why would people go to the mental gymnastics of calling him a pronoun that didn't match his sex if it wasn't malicious? Calling someone a pronoun that doesn't match is something you have to very consciously do, it doesn't come naturally because it goes against the language we have learnt (which is why people slip up and misgender those with different pronouns). So I can't see any reason why people would be actively and deliberately using a different pronoun unless it was malicious.

Why would anyone call a woman ‘he’ unless she was trying to disguise herself as a man?

That he would be likely to have men around him who wanted to use women’s changing rooms, compete in women’s sports etc. He would have to keep quiet if this came up in conversation. Depending on how pushy these men were, he might be expected to go along with the undermining of women.

I absolutely hate mandatory pronoun boxes and all the he/him, they/themselves bollocks. But if you actively decide to join an alphabet acronym club then it’s to be expected! I do think it’s a bit weird to join an lgbt+ club if you aren’t at least one of the letters though!

I agree with literally all these responses. Even the one that said this thread was stupid. I think I’m just becoming so hyper aware of the encroachment of gender ideology that I maybe lost sight of the fact that this would be par for the course for an LGBT+ sports club, and there will be trans people for whom this is important to them. Being gender critical doesn’t mean I need to be a dick about it.

A few things:

Even though I agree with putting ‘he / him’ is inoffensive in the grand scheme of things, I do find it odd that it’s an enforced box - as a few of you have said, that kind of ‘outs’ someone if they’re not ready to state their identity. But that’s not my problem.

To those suggesting he’s more anxious about it because it’s my feelings, that’s not quite the case. He’s new to this, it hasn’t affected him yet, but we have two young girls so I think it’s something he’s becoming more aware of. He’s happy to put he / him but there was a moment of hesitation which I think should be respected, which is why we discussed it (once I had finished rolling my eyes).

He does actually have a name card with them printed on it, it’s not just the form, but that’s just for social events.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I have been getting more and more brave in my GC stance, speaking out to a few friends (having already lost a few for my beliefs) so maybe I lost sight of what’s important here which is actually a really welcoming sporting team, which aims to give people not traditionally associated with the sport the chance to play in a well organised and fun way (the league includes women too).

Ah it's for allies as well, which I think is important to be fair. And has made me a bit sad actually as I would once have been considered an ally but now with my GC views they wouldn't want me on the team :(

@Daffydaff
It's his only choice of club to play the game he wants to play, so I suppose he will have to suck it up.

PlanetJanette
Using masculine pronouns to refer to a man is correct English usage. Because third-person pronouns agree with a person's sex.

Mis-sexing a person is when you either address or refer to them in language appropriate to the opposite sex. Not to gender or gender identity. Misgendering is not mis-sexing.

I could understand someone being upset about having their gender identity wrongly described but English third-person pronouns refer to sex. So they have no right or reason to take offence at being correctly sexed.

If you want special neo-pronouns to indicate gender identities, you will have to invent some.

Well, you can always tell what their pronouns should be..... less so the ones they would rather you use....

It hasn't happened to me, but I don't think I would mind. I think I would find it quite amusing, especially if it happened in front of my son who would like me to mis-sex him.

Ah I see - worried about fraternising with people who disagree with you. I see.

I wouldn’t worry about who uses what pronouns for me. That really doesn’t bother me. My name is often incorrectly used and it really isn’t a problem. I answer to Paula and Penny as long as I know they mean me. When there’s any doubt I clarify.

I would worry about being confronted with safeguarding issues that I’d feel obliged to respond to, and all the hassle that comes from that. I would struggle to socialise light heartedly with people who support mutilating healthy bodies, misusing women’s spaces etc.
A trans man (buckangel?) posted on X last week and the swelling in their hand was painful to see. Really eye watering.

I couldn’t ignore that kind of subject if it cropped up in conversation. That’s why I’d worry about, rather than my pronouns.

I don't think it's gender critical feminists who struggle to be around people with opposing views, tbh.

I was kicked out of an online parenting community for disagreeing that JK Rowling is a hateful Nazi.

I'm not interested in pursuing friendships with people who would excommunicate me for expressing my gender critical views in a respectful manner. If you can't express your true opinions to someone because you are afraid they will cut you out of their life if you do, they aren't a real friend.

To a certain extent I think this attitude is to be expected in social groups which are specifically labelled for LGBTQ+ and allies, which is why I wouldn't be interested in joining such a group. But it's a bit of a shitter when it happens to you in a non LGBTQ+ context. This is, to be honest, one of the reasons why I tend to avoid Americans these days. Their country seems to be divided into people who vote for Trump and people who think I'm a hateful bigot for not believing that trans women are women. So it's pretty much a waste of my time engaging with them.

PJ exhibiting the privilege of someone who does not fear adverse consequences for expressing lawful views.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom I agree with this: "I'm not interested in pursuing friendships with people who would excommunicate me for expressing my gender critical views in a respectful manner. If you can't express your true opinions to someone because you are afraid they will cut you out of their life if you do, they aren't a real friend." I actually wrote a thread a while back about losing a friend to this subject, someone who I loved like a brother but who labelled me and shut me down and it took me a while (and an attempted olive branch) to realise that he was not a real friend.

However, now I am in a situation where I'm meeting lots of people who have trans relatives or friends and I'm not yet brave enough to express my thoughts, because they're lovely people and ultimately I want friends, having just moved to a very liberal city in America where this is just a thing.

Ironically, I just read your post as a new mum friend left my house after a cup of tea, whose ex-husband is now trans. I went along with the pronouns she was using for her ex, didn't dive too much into that part (we were mainly comparing notes about how important it is for partners to be supportive in the early days of motherhood, a common bond we have in that ours were both shit!), but I did wonder what she would say if she knew that I don't think her ex-husband is a woman. And it made me sad that I'm hiding a bit of me.

I have made friends with one woman out here who thinks as I do, but she's from back home so the lack of 'capture' makes more sense.

Why is a straight person joining an LGBTQ+ club in the first place? Surely there are other clubs.
Isn't he encroaching on a safe space??

Personally I couldn’t give a hoot if someone calls me ‘him’ instead of the her I obviously am ( especially since I would be very unlikely to hear them since , you know, third person singular not generally used in the presence of the person being described).

But treasure the offence 🐁 if it makes you happy.