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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Before We Were Trans by Kit Heyam

5 replies

PermanentTemporary · 19/07/2024 23:03

Anyone else read this and interested?

I really enjoyed it. I liked the author's openness to a whole range of ideas, and in particular the chapter about gender in 16th century England.

I find Heyam really good on the impact of gender. I agree with them eg that clothes have meaning, and can see they're right that what people wear has a huge impact on their self image and also on the way that people see and react to them, so that their gender is partly self created by acting it, partly created by others. For myself I'm bisexual, and although I can find transwomen attractive as men and transmen attractive as women, I'm less attracted than I otherwise would be, which has to be because of the way they present themselves. Which is just a personal thing, but it does argue that gender is a real thing and not just 'nonsense'. And that's interesting and challenging to me as a GC person. It makes me think that perhaps I should go back to calling myself a terf, because gender critical isn't quite right.

Where Heyam is unconvincing to me is (not surprisingly) in arguing that sex is completely unimportant and indefinable, and as ever only started to be defined by evil colonialists. Heyam tells the story of the memorial plaque for Anne Lister, with which they were centrally involved, and the furore that erupted when it turned out to leave out the word 'lesbian'. Heyam says they left out the word 'because everyone KNEW she was a lesbian'. And yet Heyam takes any lack of specific naming of sexes in the past as evidence that nobody had sex as a mental concept. When surely it's much more likely to be because it was so completely central that it didn't have to be named - and because until very recently in history in most societies, gender roles and sex were so intertwined that it was assumed they could not be detached from each other.

There's also the lack of acknowledgement that many of the things they discuss as strands of gender primacy in the past were BAD things by any possible measure. Like the various motivations for getting boys castrated, the assumption that a person who wore a dress must be a woman, and would be treated by a dominant male sex class as sexually available because a) that's what women were for and b) men who stepped into a female role were intrinsically lesser, like women but worse. I know that history is not about making moral judgements but presenting eunuchs as precursors to the contemporary trans movement is a really odd and yet telling thing to do.

Where I do feel Heyam is quite right is in saying that it isn't possible for us to know what the motivation of people in the past was when they changed their gender presentation. That it's perfectly reasonable to think that those motivations could have been much closer to what trans people now express than is commonly thought (by people like me I guess). That to present in that way was often (though not always, see the chapter on West African leaders) the mark of outcasts, and their motivations weren't recorded. That's all very convincing.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 20/07/2024 09:29

Thanks for this, PermanentTemporary, very interesting post.

Truthlikeness · 20/07/2024 10:11

I haven't read the book so can't comment, but just picking up your point about attraction. I'm also bi and I don't find transwomen and transmen attractive. This is both a combination of how they appear visually, but also because of the association with an ideology I reject.

In the same way, I would not find someone deeply religious (and wearing signs of this) attractive, or someone very heavily into body modification (lumps and bumps and bits chopped off, not just a few tattoos).

RedToothBrush · 20/07/2024 10:20

For myself I'm bisexual, and although I can find transwomen attractive as men and transmen attractive as women, I'm less attracted than I otherwise would be, which has to be because of the way they present themselves. Which is just a personal thing, but it does argue that gender is a real thing and not just 'nonsense'.

Disagree. There's a whole pile of other correlating factors here which you are ignoring. You are stating that the cause is gender, but that's not necessarily true. (Actually I'd go as far as to say it's complete bollocks)

Heterosexual and bisexual women don't fancy all men. Why? Some women are attracted to men others find icky. Purely on appearance. Reflect on that. What's going on.

For example, presentation is often about confidence or the level of 'peacocking' that people like. Some women find cocky over confident men horrible whilst others look for it.

Then you have stuff to do with perceptions of biological sex. An apt example here for being transgender and why people might not like it is the feeling of something not being quite right. See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Other attractions might be values based: for example whether you perceive someone to be trustworthy or not. And then whether someone being trustworthy is your priority over someone fun to be around. Etc etc.

Some women want to avoid the alpha male in a group, as they don't see them as a long term prospect. They may well have previously wanted this too - and have learned this isn't as attractive as they thought. So it can depend on life stage and experience too.

Some of this may well be based on social stereotypes of different types, through social conditioning. But this is certainly not an innate sexual desire thing. Responding to socially conditioned cues is nurture not nature.

My point here is you are putting two and two together and making eight. You are examining this from the wrong angle. You are looking at it only through the lens of trans, rather than a more generalised thought process over what you find attractive and how someone trans might fit into that based on various factors.

Basically you are looking at this upside-down - which is essentially the biggest failing of gender identity beliefs - they narrow and focus on seeing everything through the lens of gender rather than taking in the wider picture of the world. As part of the wider lens, biology always comes into it at some point due to biological mechanics.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 20/07/2024 10:38

gender is a real thing and not just 'nonsense'.

this is interesting and also a point I struggle with. where I go to is - does having the kind of body that can get pregnant from a sexual encounter and end up with a dependent child make you view the world differently to having the kind of body that doesn't? of course it does.

so I do think that men and women are often coming from different places and that comes down to our bodies.

unfortunately somehow admitting in any way that lots of women feel or behave a certain way, probably because they are women (for example: lots of women want to focus on their children when they are very young rather than working outside the home) always ends up with women getting the shitty end of the stick (yes you've got no pension and will live your retirement out in poverty but you got to raise your children - go you!).

aaand now I've realised I'm talking about sex differences not gender.

but is gender not something like 'most people of this sex think like, prefer to behave, dress etc like this?' In which case maybe I am talking about gender.

Snugglemonkey · 20/07/2024 10:51

I am androsexual. I did not even know it had a name until fairly recently. Previously, I thought I was bisexual or potentially pansexual. I don't really care about labels, so have not sought to find one, I just stumbled across it at 40 and it feels quite right.

I am not bothered about gender or genitalia when it comes to attraction. I have been with men, women and a transman happily, but I find transwomen are never attractive to me. I am attracted to women who would be quite androgenous, or butch. I think I find what I perceive to be masculine sexually attractive, and I dislike transwomen accentuating the kind of "feminine" that I also find unattractive in women, mainly false stuff.

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