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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Senedd vote today on whether Welsh politicians have a sex

38 replies

fromorbit · 16/07/2024 08:28

Merched Cymru summary:

Why the Senedd should reject flawed gender quota Bill
On Tuesday (16 July), the Senedd will be asked to approve the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. This Bill would impose a statutory ‘gender’ quota to the new proportional representation electoral system. Our response to the consultation is on our website.
To summarise our concerns:
The Bill is a blunt instrument that does nothing to address the underlying systemic barriers leading to women’s under-representation in politics.
The failure of the Bill to define the key terms ‘woman’ and ‘gender’ or to refer to the correct protected characteristic of ‘sex’ would effectively introduce a form of self-ID to Wales. This is undemocratic and would breach the Equality Act 2010.
The Bill is not within the legislative competence of the Senedd and will inevitably be subject to a costly, reputationally damaging legal challenge.

https://merchedcymru.wales/2024/07/14/merched-cymrus-response-to-the-senedds-proposed-gender-quota/

Wales Women's Rights Network have another great summary here:
https://x.com/WRNWales/status/1812832391271981479

Welsh Labour/Plaid are clearly dumb enough to do this. However luckily biology is real and so are lawyers so looking forward to gardening a humiliating defeat for them. This could be the start of an even bigger resistance movement in Wales when everyone realises how insane this stuff is.

Get your tools ready folks.

Consultation responses - Merched Cymru

Merched Cymru have responded to numerous consultations and inquiries to express our views. This page provides download links to them all.

https://merchedcymru.wales/consultation-responses/

OP posts:
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IwantToRetire · 16/07/2024 18:39

Have now seen this:

Plans that would have meant political parties would have had to have at least 50% women as candidates have been delayed by the Welsh Government. The plan was part of a proposal to reform the Senedd.

That is still going ahead, with a new voting system and an increase in members from 60 to 96 members, but the element about gender quotas was removed from the initial bill and was being pursued separately. Now it has been delayed for four years.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-government-shelves-plans-gender-29549059

So is the being pursued separately part of introducing a Welsh Gender Recognition law (closer to Scotland's?) which would mean setting gender quotas in the Senedd would then accept TWAW as creating equla representation.

Welsh Government shelves plans for a gender-balanced Senedd

The plans have been delayed from 2026 to 2030

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-government-shelves-plans-gender-29549059

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 18:57

IwantToRetire · 16/07/2024 18:39

Have now seen this:

Plans that would have meant political parties would have had to have at least 50% women as candidates have been delayed by the Welsh Government. The plan was part of a proposal to reform the Senedd.

That is still going ahead, with a new voting system and an increase in members from 60 to 96 members, but the element about gender quotas was removed from the initial bill and was being pursued separately. Now it has been delayed for four years.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-government-shelves-plans-gender-29549059

So is the being pursued separately part of introducing a Welsh Gender Recognition law (closer to Scotland's?) which would mean setting gender quotas in the Senedd would then accept TWAW as creating equla representation.

“So is the being pursued separately part of introducing a Welsh Gender Recognition law (closer to Scotland's?) which would mean setting gender quotas in the Senedd would then accept TWAW as creating equal representation?”

No. It’s being pursued through the Gender Quotas Bill which is the Bill that Jane Hutt’s letter refers to.

Instead of including the gender quota element in the Senedd Reform Bill (now an Act, I believe), the gender quota proposal was separated out into the Gender Quotas Bill.

From 2026, the Senedd will elect more MSs - 96 instead of 60 - and the election will be on the party list system. Currently there are 40 constituency MSs elected on the basis of first past the post, and 20 regional MSs elected via proportional representation / party list system. From 2026 they will all be elected on the basis of proportional representation from a part list.

Gender quotas was separated out from that Senedd Reform legislation to avoid the increased size / removal of the link to constituencies / PR being derailed due to a potential for successful legal challenge about the gender quotas element not being within the Senedd’s legislative powers.

On the PR / party list point, expect to see Reform (if it still exists) target the Senedd in the 2026 elections, like UKIP did in 2016.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 16/07/2024 19:21

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 18:57

“So is the being pursued separately part of introducing a Welsh Gender Recognition law (closer to Scotland's?) which would mean setting gender quotas in the Senedd would then accept TWAW as creating equal representation?”

No. It’s being pursued through the Gender Quotas Bill which is the Bill that Jane Hutt’s letter refers to.

Instead of including the gender quota element in the Senedd Reform Bill (now an Act, I believe), the gender quota proposal was separated out into the Gender Quotas Bill.

From 2026, the Senedd will elect more MSs - 96 instead of 60 - and the election will be on the party list system. Currently there are 40 constituency MSs elected on the basis of first past the post, and 20 regional MSs elected via proportional representation / party list system. From 2026 they will all be elected on the basis of proportional representation from a part list.

Gender quotas was separated out from that Senedd Reform legislation to avoid the increased size / removal of the link to constituencies / PR being derailed due to a potential for successful legal challenge about the gender quotas element not being within the Senedd’s legislative powers.

On the PR / party list point, expect to see Reform (if it still exists) target the Senedd in the 2026 elections, like UKIP did in 2016.

Thanks for the clarification, does it say anywhere in the official documentation that they are paying any attention to the position of the Women's Rights group. I'm not that versed in making sense of political gobble-d-gook.

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:29

@TheywontletmehavethenameIwant

If you click on the second link in my earlier post, scroll down and then click on the drop down arrow in the Stage 1 table, you’ll be able to see a list of all the reports and correspondence.

The list includes the WRN 14th July letter to the chair of the legislative scrutiny committee, saying that the scrutiny committee’s report doesn’t address the
points raised by WRN.

https://business.senedd.wales/documents/s152502/Letter%20from%20Womens%20Rights%20Network%20regarding%20the%20Senedd%20Cymru%20Electoral%20Candidate%20Lists%20Bill%20-%2014%20Jul.pdf

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:31

Sunday, 14th July 2024
Women’s Rights Network response to Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists Bill): Stage 1

We refer you to our initial consultation response1 in which we outlined the reasons we do not support the Electoral Candidate Lists Bill. As you are aware, we also gave oral evidence to the Reform Bill Committee and are grateful to have had that opportunity.

We have now read the report of that Committee. None of the 25 recommendations proposed at Stage 1 fully address our concerns. Given that the Bill is due to be debated on Tuesday, 16th July 2024 for support or otherwise on its ‘general principles’, we invite the Senedd to reject the general principles of this Bill.
We consider the Bill to be in breach of the Equality Act 2010 because it does not demonstrate how it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. This would leave the Welsh Government open to the challenge of unlawful discrimination.
It is unclear if the definition of ‘woman’ as used in the Bill has the same definition as the Equality Act 2010 (i.e. a female of any age). If it does not, then it will not comply with UK wide equality legislation (a reserved matter) and is beyond the legislative competence of the Welsh Government2.

The lack of definitions within the Bill has been referred to several times in the evidence given at Stage 1, including in questions to the Minister proposing the Bill. There has been a consistent failure to clarify terms which critically damages the stated intentions of the Bill and renders the question of legislative competence inevitable.

We also note that an earlier, leaked draft of this Bill made it very clear that the definition of ‘woman’ was being extended beyond that of the Equality Act. We wish to remind Senedd members that self identification is not the law in the UK and that ambiguity in definitions within the Bill as published does not overcome the inevitably of this being exploited by those making a ‘gender statement’ that does not concur with their sex.

We note that the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), an organisation whose expertise should have been considered essential for input and advice regarding the drafting and proposing of this Bill, do not appear to have been utilised effectively, and have also voiced their own concerns.

It is clear from the consultation responses, including from those legally qualified in such matters, that we are not alone in our views regarding the lack of legislative competence for this Bill, and our concern regarding lack of definitions. Notably, the Reform Bill Committee share these concerns too, hence their recommendation for a Supreme Court review prior to this Bill being made law. It is our view that it would be better (and less financially prohibitive) for this deeply flawed Bill to be shelved. Members should also consider the legitimacy of Senedd elections, as well as the reputational damage for devolution and the legitimacy of the Welsh Government.
Whilst we are pleased to note that recommendation 9 would extend the corrupt practice offence to false statements in nomination or other papers, this is not sufficiently robust to prevent the falsification of a ‘gender statement’. Without a clear definition of’ ‘woman’ within this Bill, it is not possible to know what would actually constitute falsification and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to establish that any such false statement has been made. This proposed safeguard therefore becomes meaningless in practice.

As we and others have pointed out previously, the Equality Impact Assessment4 (EIA) that accompanied the Bill at stage 1 is insufficient and badly flawed. This cannot be overcome at subsequent stages of the Bill. We therefore consider that a thorough and competent EIA needs to be undertaken before this Bill progresses, in order to better inform the extent to which it will achieve its stated objectives.
Women’s Rights Network wants to see a more equal society that ensures equal opportunities for women by removing barriers. However, this Bill attempts to enforce an equality of outcome that runs counter to the provisions of the Equality Act 2010, and potentially unlawfully tinkers with the definition of ‘woman’. For that reason, we cannot support it. We invite Senedd members to consider this to be a critically flawed Bill and to reject it.

Yours sincerely,

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 16/07/2024 19:34

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:29

@TheywontletmehavethenameIwant

If you click on the second link in my earlier post, scroll down and then click on the drop down arrow in the Stage 1 table, you’ll be able to see a list of all the reports and correspondence.

The list includes the WRN 14th July letter to the chair of the legislative scrutiny committee, saying that the scrutiny committee’s report doesn’t address the
points raised by WRN.

https://business.senedd.wales/documents/s152502/Letter%20from%20Womens%20Rights%20Network%20regarding%20the%20Senedd%20Cymru%20Electoral%20Candidate%20Lists%20Bill%20-%2014%20Jul.pdf

Thanks for the information, if it's being discussed today, how would I find out what the outcome was.

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:46

Thanks for the information, if it's being discussed today, how would I find out what the outcome was.

That’s what I was looking for on the Senedd website @TheywontletmehavethenameIwant , but I only found the legislative scrutiny committee’s page on the Bill.

The discussion will (I assume) have been a vote in a plenary session in the chamber, so there should be the transcript of it available sometime this week.

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:46

Thanks for the information, if it's being discussed today, how would I find out what the outcome was.

That’s what I was looking for on the Senedd website @TheywontletmehavethenameIwant , but I only found the legislative scrutiny committee’s page on the Bill.

The discussion will (I assume) have been a vote in a plenary session in the chamber, so there should be the transcript of it available sometime this week.

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:51

@TheywontletmehavethenameIwant

Found it, item 7 on this page.

https://business.senedd.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=700&MId=13985

The item started at 16.17

Voting on the motion under this item was deferred until Voting Time.
NDM8614 Jane Hutt (Vale of Glamorgan)

To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:
Agrees to the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill.

The Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill and Explanatory Memorandum were laid before the Senedd on 11 March 2024.

The report of the Reform Bill Committee on the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill was laid before the Senedd on 7 June 2024.

The result was as follows:
For39
Abstain0
Against14
Total53

The motion was agreed.

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:57

Vote summary

The Conservatives voted against. All other parties voted in favour.

https://business.senedd.wales/documents/s152546/16.07.24%20Votes%20Summary.pdf

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 16/07/2024 19:57

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 19:51

@TheywontletmehavethenameIwant

Found it, item 7 on this page.

https://business.senedd.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=700&MId=13985

The item started at 16.17

Voting on the motion under this item was deferred until Voting Time.
NDM8614 Jane Hutt (Vale of Glamorgan)

To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:
Agrees to the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill.

The Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill and Explanatory Memorandum were laid before the Senedd on 11 March 2024.

The report of the Reform Bill Committee on the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill was laid before the Senedd on 7 June 2024.

The result was as follows:
For39
Abstain0
Against14
Total53

The motion was agreed.

Edited

The vote went as it always does then. 😒
Thanks for the link to the Senedd Website, I'll keep it for future use.

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 20:02

No problem. The Senedd website has a lot of useful info once you find your way round it.

Clicking on the “calendar” menu was how I eventually found the plenary debate information. But the website seems to want to take you to the committees and other events first. Considering that they were still voting at 18.16, it’s impressive that it’s all on there within a couple of hours. There’s a video of the afternoon’s proceedings if you wanted to watch the debate.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 16/07/2024 20:27

Draigosaurus · 16/07/2024 20:02

No problem. The Senedd website has a lot of useful info once you find your way round it.

Clicking on the “calendar” menu was how I eventually found the plenary debate information. But the website seems to want to take you to the committees and other events first. Considering that they were still voting at 18.16, it’s impressive that it’s all on there within a couple of hours. There’s a video of the afternoon’s proceedings if you wanted to watch the debate.

Couldn't wait to tell the world the good news no doubt, I think I'll pass on the video, the vote say's it all really. Thanks for the suggestion though. 👍

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