RSHE: Who decides? Schools? Parents? Government? Is there a collaborative way to resolve competing rights?

[IwantToRetire]

There have been a number of different threads on this with the guidelines issued earlier this year by Tory Government https://www.gov.uk/government/news/age-limits-introduced-to-protect-children-in-rshe

And their now closed consultation https://consult.education.gov.uk/rshe-team/review-of-the-rshe-statutory-guidance/

On the day it closed 100 groups called for the consultation to be abandoned on the grounds it was rushed and based on political positions not children’s interest https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5117718-100-organisations-ask-labour-to-abandon-tory-revised-guidelines-on-rshe

How can this be resolved so that the primary aim of helping children as they move towards adulthood is achieved, but no at the expense of the right of parents to be equally important in that process?

It can be "solved" by the government noting the response to the consultation. It was literally set up for the public to give views.

The government of the day needs to pull on its big girl pants, prioritise children and their parents, and put the cultists back in their box.

Interesting question.

My preference would be RHSE providers and content are more tightly controlled centrally, maybe by the DfE. I think setting out principles and guidelines for schools would be better than imposing arbitrary rules. And I'd like any updates to be guided by teachers and professionals who have been working with the 2020 guidelines and will know what is not working well.

I don't think parents should be able to remove children from RHSE lessons because the children who will benefit most from the education are those who's parents are most uncomfortable with the topics and unlikely to discuss at home.

The most important thing is probably that teachers are encouraged to critically examine the materials they are asked to use. Is the information accurate? Is it contradictory? Could there be unintended consequences from some of the messaging? Am I asking children what they've understood after the lesson - is it what I expected or have they taken a different message?

Do all the critical reflecting we're told not to do by the usual suspects - for obvious reasons!!

This.

Editing to add that I include wingnut religious types in cultists not just Trans activists. Children have the right to factual age appropriate information about their bodies. So no 'sex is wrong' but equally no gender woo and no porn thinly disguised as 'sex positivity'.

Something has to be done about the activist layer in the teaching unions, and it may come down to the majority of sensible teachers who have been poorly represented for decades.

The kneejerk responses we get from NEU activists are:

• Parents shouldn't be able to withdraw their children from RHSE lessons
• Parents shouldn't have the right to know what's being taught under RHSE
• Parents should be assumed to be bigots who don't know what's best for their children, and therefore sensitive issues like sex are best left to the professionals

I wish more teachers, and maybe more to the point Bridget Phillipson (bearing in mind the outsize influence of teachers in the Labour Party) would look at the similar approach being taken by American teaching unions, and ask themselves how that's working out for them.

I include wingnut religious types in cultists
Yes. Me too. I would not want to see the kind of "input" into RHSE in the UK that the evangelical Christian community have had in the US.

Unfortunately as we know from the consultation re reform of the GRA well financed campaign groups can hijack these. And in fact the Tory government went against the majority saying getting a GRA more easily was a priority, and justified doing this by saying too many replies identically worded (I think).

This was partly why I asked this as a question.

I am sure in an ideal world where everyone checks the .gov.uk web site or happens to be on some SM platform where this is an issue, then the consultation would probably get a far wider set of ideas than from those who for good or bad reasons who have a vested interest.

Added to which how schools implement this isn't consistent.

And what I left out in the title of my OP, is in fact getting feed back from children themselves.

Not just immediately after a session at school, but try and talk to what will now be young adults as to what helped them and what didn't.

Should the content of school lessons be over seen by a parents group or something.

Totally not helpful, but as I was dropping off to sleep I have visions of a government campaign through short films / ads like they used to do about learning to cross the road. Just so it would become a public talking point.

I'm uncomfortable with the concept of 'competing rights' being used to determine what / how children are taught as that suggests to me a 'balance' that isn't necessarily scientific (eg balance of flat earth and non flat earth beliefs in the interests of 'fairness' to each belief system).

Children's rights are the only ones relevant.

I don't think any faction has the 'right' to determine what children are taught - it should be facts / evidence based.

We have largely solved this question re religion in the UK - it's taught as belief and not fact and most people are in with this.

I think the trouble with sex&relationships education is that some people's point of view is clearly belief/morality based but they see it as fact. I am not sure they're is any way to get past this without pissing those people off.

As has been said upthread, taking on board all the consultation responses that have been submitted this far would be a good faith way to start.

I think the government should focus on teaching children how to read, write and do basic arithmetic. Until 100% of children can leave school with these basic skills they shouldn't be worrying about RSE.

I believe this is actually a first principles question, to a large extent.

What right does the state have with regards to imposing a particular type of education on children, and also, what obligations does the state have to keep away from controversial belief systems in state provided education.

I don't actually think that's a matter of opinion, as such, it's not about a social consensus about what schools should teach. It's about the role of parents vs the state in children's lives.

It's really important to keep clear in our minds that as soon as we say it is ok, or good, for the state to undermine or contradict parental views that the majority thinks are wrong, we've set a precedent. We should have a very good sense of what the lines are around that and understand that if we don't, it could easily become any set of socially popular beliefs the state sees as it's job to impart.

I think with gender ideology, some people who had been content to allow that the state should use education to indoctrinate children suddenly experienced what this means when you aren't comfortable with the narrative the state is pushing.

I also think the question of belief vs fact is much less helpful here than people might like. In general, in the UK I don't think you'd find many who objected to facts like how biology works, what to expect with puberty, what kinds of birth control are available and whether they work, STIs, and what kinds of things are legal or illegal, rape and sexual assault.

But there are a lot of things that many average people in the UK might think of as facts, that are actually values statements. Things like gender roles in marriage, abortion, sex outside of marriage casual sex, homosexuality, parenting questions, whether sexual fetishes are ok, whether masturbation is ok, whether pornography is ok, whether prostitution is ok. These are all things about which there are many viewpoints, religious and non-religious, that touch on complicated questions about sexual behaviour.

Personally, I have some real doubts about whether schools have any moral right to teach kids about that stuff, and maybe more to the point, I am not at all convinced that most teachers or the people who develop curriculum are capable of addressing these points appropriately in a society that is multicultural and contains a lot of religious and ideological pluralism.

I know it's very much going against the grain or the last decades to say schools should just stay out of those kinds of questions, but I don't see a plausible better solution.

I rather wonder though - who has ideas about sex that aren't belief/morality based?

I guess that's what I was clumsily trying to say - it's the nature of the beast.

Some ideas eg 'some women have a penis' are ideologically based and not factually based (although those that hold them would probably try to argue that they are, they just have different 'facts' to back them up).

I don't know how you can get around that.

I agree and I include feminism in this. Feminism can and should easily be part of history or politics. But "casting a feminist lens" or whatever the hackneyed phrase is, so as to skew a sex education lesson, should not be happening in any area of school life. Same goes for CRT and other forms of P/politics. The law is clear on that.

That's very useful for me in trying to work out where this responsibility lies.

Thanks

I think most people would think it should be by the parents.

But then hte issue comes up that some parents wont bother or are embarrased, or that some parents will pass onto children "facts" that are in no ways facts. (I am often struck by how many people, usually men, in the public who have been found to use their position to sexually harass will then refer to being surrounded by pornographic material when growing up. Or the female US duo who got a lot of criticism for their song, saying it reflected the influences of their childhood which was pornography.)

So presumably for this reason, as well as basic facts about contraception, that the idea that the state should intervene became a reality.

But why ask schools to do it? Wouldn't a health based organisation be better. Was it just the practicality, ie that children were already congregated?

I think this was why I thought about short info films being shared on any number of platforms. But that would be a hit and miss affair.

What is wrong with using masturbation as a tool for sex education?
https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2024/07/14/what-is-wrong-with-using-masturbation-as-a-tool-for-sex-education/

I don't think you'd find many who objected to facts like how biology works, what to expect with puberty, what kinds of birth control are available and whether they work, STIs, and what kinds of things are legal or illegal, rape and sexual assault

They are actually exactly the sort of things that parents object to being taught. Most Summer Terms, you'll find a sadface local paper article somewhere on how parents they mean fathers are up in arms at x school, saying that 'children should be children' with specific reference to their daughter (it's never a son in my experience) having nightmares about periods/childbirth or that it'll just encourage them to go and try things out now boys know what parts to touch.

the majority of sensible teachers

I'd love to think this is true.

In my school ("outstanding") secondary, the vast, vast majority of teachers are absolutely fucking clueless.

I'm trying to be charitable. I suppose it might be better to say the majority of teachers are relatively sensible, compared to the wackaloons who dominate the NEU.

I strongly disagree.
A key reason why teenage pregnancy rates have fallen is education around safe sex, and access to contraception.

Now we have an epidemic of sexual violence and misogyny. Educating particularly boys about healthy relationships and consent is vital.

There is no other avenue to do this reliably other than schools.

Thats an awful article that completely ignore loads of feminism and research on sexuality, as well as misrepresentation the paper involved.
I haven't looked too closely at SSA but this article and the one on the other thread is making me quite concerned about them.

@CassieMaddox What part specifically did you think was awful and anti feminist?

I have to admit that I can't understand the rationale for teaching specifics of masturbation to kids. It's not the same as discussing boundaries and consent.

A timely article on teaching masturbation to children. I know who I'm concerned about. It's not SSA:

https://x.com/safeschoolsuk/status/1812935786393969104?s=46&t=WHoOZZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2024/07/14/what-is-wrong-with-using-masturbation-as-a-tool-for-sex-education/

Hi @CassieMaddox, what is it about SSA you are specifically concerned about?

What article on the other thread? It would be helpful if you could link it.