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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish government implements Cass recommendations

22 replies

RoyalCorgi · 05/07/2024 19:17

Haven't seen a thread on this, and only know about it because JKR tweeted about it, so...

www.thenational.scot/news/24434019.scottish-government-responds-recommendations-cass-review/ www.thenational.scot/news/24434019.scottish-government-responds-recommendations-cass-review/]]]]

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 05/07/2024 19:26

ha! Snook that one out under the radar didbt they

very pleased to see they’ve seen sense!

DisappearingGirl · 05/07/2024 20:14

Brilliant news

UtopiaPlanitia · 05/07/2024 20:20

I'm glad the Scottish government are implementing the Cass recommendations; I'm slightly worried that the language in the quotes from government and NHS sources is still very much viewing children with gender distress with exceptionalism and talking about 'gender identity' rather than gender-related distress.

I'm also surprised that The National stated that the Cass Review was 'harshly criticised by academics'. As a description of recent events, that statement in the article felt undermining of the Cass findings.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 05/07/2024 20:20

Fantastic news! Is it just me or does that National article not actually spell out that the recommendations have been implemented?

Too hard for them to take I guess. 🤭

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/07/2024 20:21

What happened to the Scottish Greens? Did Patrick Harvie retain his seat?

Waitwhat23 · 05/07/2024 20:37

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/07/2024 20:21

What happened to the Scottish Greens? Did Patrick Harvie retain his seat?

Edited

As an MSP, unfortunately he's likely to remain in post until the Scottish Parliament election in 2026. Many think he should have resigned after the collapse of the Bute House agreement but he's hanging on.

dacdser · 05/07/2024 20:39

I can't find the article, had it been taken down?

Redshoeblueshoe · 05/07/2024 20:40

The link worked for me. Great news

Warmfeet · 05/07/2024 20:45

Does it not just say that they’re considering the recommendations, rather than they’re implementing it?

DuesToTheDirt · 05/07/2024 20:45

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/07/2024 20:21

What happened to the Scottish Greens? Did Patrick Harvie retain his seat?

Edited

He's an MSP not an MP.

The Scottish Greens had 44 candidates, for 57 seats. They didn't win any.

Binglebong · 05/07/2024 20:48

DuesToTheDirt · 05/07/2024 20:45

He's an MSP not an MP.

The Scottish Greens had 44 candidates, for 57 seats. They didn't win any.

How were they trying for more seats than candidates? Are you allowed yo run for two consecutively?

Hoosemover · 05/07/2024 21:03

Binglebong · 05/07/2024 20:48

How were they trying for more seats than candidates? Are you allowed yo run for two consecutively?

They only fought 44 seats out of the 57 in Scotland

Binglebong · 05/07/2024 21:06

Ah got ya. Not awake. Thanks.

DuesToTheDirt · 06/07/2024 20:05

Shortshriftandlethal · 05/07/2024 20:21

What happened to the Scottish Greens? Did Patrick Harvie retain his seat?

Edited

Incidentally, all of the Scottish Green MSPs (currently 7 I think) were elected under the list system, rather than voted in directly. We have a type of PR, and I tried to find a nice summary for you but it's quite a complicated system so I gave up!

But when people say they want PR, hmm, be careful what you wish for.

Waitwhat23 · 06/07/2024 20:12

DuesToTheDirt · 06/07/2024 20:05

Incidentally, all of the Scottish Green MSPs (currently 7 I think) were elected under the list system, rather than voted in directly. We have a type of PR, and I tried to find a nice summary for you but it's quite a complicated system so I gave up!

But when people say they want PR, hmm, be careful what you wish for.

Strangely enough, I was trying to find a good summary the other day in response to a comment on here about the FPTP system in UK wide elections and found this to be the most easily understandable (agree that it's overall quite bloody complicated!) -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zt4hv4j/revision/5

There seems to be good and bad points in respect to STV/AMS//PR but one of the bad points is the example of the Scottish Greens.

What is the Single Transferable Vote in Scotland (STV)? - Voting systems in Scotland - National 5 Modern Studies Revision - BBC Bitesize

National 5 Voting systems in Scotland - the Additional Member System (AMS) and the Single Transferable Vote (STV) from BBC Bitesize Scotland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zt4hv4j/revision/5

DuesToTheDirt · 06/07/2024 20:38

@Waitwhat23 and for the Scottish council elections, where you vote with numbers and can mark off as many as you want, there has been much debate on whether you should rank all the candidates, or only the ones you like. It has been argued that putting a candidate last ends up ranking them lower than leaving it blank, but I forget why, and whether this is actually the case or not. Confusing!

I seem to remember having two different voting systems close together in date a few years ago, probably Scottish Parliament and local elections, and lots of voters did seem to get confused and filled in their ballots wrongly.

Omlettes · 07/07/2024 04:15

RoyalCorgi · 05/07/2024 19:17

Thats great news!

NecessaryScene · 07/07/2024 07:42

and for the Scottish council elections, where you vote with numbers and can mark off as many as you want, there has been much debate on whether you should rank all the candidates, or only the ones you like. It has been argued that putting a candidate last ends up ranking them lower than leaving it blank, but I forget why, and whether this is actually the case or not. Confusing!

That STV system is a sensible one, but I can understand why people might think it's a stupid one, or get it confused with the stupid one used for the Scottish Parliament.

(My view is that the Parliament has a stupid system that guarantees seats for idiots because the people with the power to fix it are the people that think they might actually want a nice guaranteed seat, thanks. Whereas council seats are beneath them, so okay, you can have a proper democratic election system for those.)

Anyway, it doesn't matter at all whether you explicitly fill in your last preference. In any count - at every stage your vote is counted for your highest remaining unelected preference. It can never be counted for your last preference, as there must be at least two people still in the race for it to be counted, and you will have ranked another person higher. So "single blank" and "lowest number" achieve exactly the same thing.

What does matter is if you leave multiple blank. Even if there's a party you hate and you'd "never" vote for, in the situation where one of them is inevitably going to be elected, maybe you have a preference which one gets the seat? Fully ranking everyone, including that party as your bottom candidates, makes sure you always vote against them if there's anyone else, and you get a say in a last round determining which one you are going to stuck with.

STV is generally held to be possibly the best voting system, as long as voters understand how to cast their votes. That's the main problem - people are so used to weird voting systems going wrong and that their honest vote might be a vote in the "wrong way" to "let someone in" or whatever, that it's hard for people to accept that "no, really, just rank everyone in true order of preference", and that that really is "okay", and it won't have bad effects. (Quirks can arise, but nothing fundamental and predictable like the Reform/Conservative split effect that just happened, so not practically worth voters trying to be "tactical" about - a straight expression of real intent is best).

I'd say the main problem is that people may not be able to distinguish candidates, and their desired ranking may be like "1,2,3,meh,meh,meh,no,NO!". To fully express the "no,NO!", they do have to rank the 3 meh's. They can't do "1,2,3,4=,4=,4=,7,8", they will have to assign some arbitrary order to the "meh"s. When voters know they have to do this, the danger is they end up in ballot order, so the highest-place advantage can be amplified by lots of "meh" voters in a big STV list. Some places will randomise ballot papers to avoid that.

Shortshriftandlethal · 07/07/2024 08:48

DuesToTheDirt · 06/07/2024 20:05

Incidentally, all of the Scottish Green MSPs (currently 7 I think) were elected under the list system, rather than voted in directly. We have a type of PR, and I tried to find a nice summary for you but it's quite a complicated system so I gave up!

But when people say they want PR, hmm, be careful what you wish for.

I agree about PR.......it simply creates a sort of stalemate, with small, extremist parties having an undue influence, and the government being unable to act with clear intention - due to the perpetual need for a consensus that doesn't exist.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 07/07/2024 10:08

The list system is awful because there's no way of getting rid of those at the top of the party and therefore top of the list. Like that vile misogynist Patrick Harvie for example.

Warmfeet · 09/07/2024 17:44

The pitfalls of the list system was highlighted by the SNP ordering to give really poor MSPs. However some of the tory list MSPs have been really good and have been neede in Holyrood to hold the snp ti account.

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