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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Unstoppable force meets immovable object?

24 replies

Brefugee · 26/06/2024 11:08

So here we go. Self ID is now The Law in Germany.

We already have one court case going where a transwoman is suing a women-only gym for not allowing use of said gym. The gym may have to close over this depending on what the judgement is.

Which is interesting. I did read somewhere that some members of the gym are muslims and this will be an issue for them, going forward, if the transwoman wins and must be allowed to be a member.

Meanwhile i stumbled across this (sorry it's in German, i know some of you read German tho) from a McDonalds in Berlin. A transwoman - who started with weekend dressing up for drag-parties but is now a self-declared transwoman - was told to leave the women's changing room by a muslim coworker. And now the transwoman is suing McDonalds for €8,000. It seems they were offered a "broom cupboard" as changing facility. so they are demanding access to the women's locker room and to continue employment there. Up to now the muslim colleague has not appeared in court as a witness.

This is going to be interesting and may set a precedent in Germany for how these things will be handled. In the twitter thread people have been suggesting that it will make employing transwomen impossible/not desirable. But i think the same would apply to muslims - and in this situation (illegal) discrimination against a transwoman at interview wouldn't have helped, as the transition occurred much later.

Any ideas how these things should be handled? (without discriminating against transwomen or muslims/women)?

edited to add the article

Transfrau aus Berlin verklagt McDonald’s: Mitarbeiterin weigert sich, Umkleide zu teilen (berliner-zeitung.de)

OP posts:
Bewareofthisonetoo · 26/06/2024 11:17

Brefugee · 26/06/2024 11:08

So here we go. Self ID is now The Law in Germany.

We already have one court case going where a transwoman is suing a women-only gym for not allowing use of said gym. The gym may have to close over this depending on what the judgement is.

Which is interesting. I did read somewhere that some members of the gym are muslims and this will be an issue for them, going forward, if the transwoman wins and must be allowed to be a member.

Meanwhile i stumbled across this (sorry it's in German, i know some of you read German tho) from a McDonalds in Berlin. A transwoman - who started with weekend dressing up for drag-parties but is now a self-declared transwoman - was told to leave the women's changing room by a muslim coworker. And now the transwoman is suing McDonalds for €8,000. It seems they were offered a "broom cupboard" as changing facility. so they are demanding access to the women's locker room and to continue employment there. Up to now the muslim colleague has not appeared in court as a witness.

This is going to be interesting and may set a precedent in Germany for how these things will be handled. In the twitter thread people have been suggesting that it will make employing transwomen impossible/not desirable. But i think the same would apply to muslims - and in this situation (illegal) discrimination against a transwoman at interview wouldn't have helped, as the transition occurred much later.

Any ideas how these things should be handled? (without discriminating against transwomen or muslims/women)?

edited to add the article

Transfrau aus Berlin verklagt McDonald’s: Mitarbeiterin weigert sich, Umkleide zu teilen (berliner-zeitung.de)

Yes it had to happen.
Will be interesting to see what happens.
Maybe McD will just stump up the 8k (peanuts compared to legal costs) and quietly look at their workforce balance and recruit accordingly.

Bewareofthisonetoo · 26/06/2024 11:18

Or just have separate broom cupboard size changing for everyone?

Brefugee · 26/06/2024 11:52

Bewareofthisonetoo · 26/06/2024 11:17

Yes it had to happen.
Will be interesting to see what happens.
Maybe McD will just stump up the 8k (peanuts compared to legal costs) and quietly look at their workforce balance and recruit accordingly.

Kylie (the transwomen) wants to keep working there so there must be some kind of resolutiin

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zibzibara · 26/06/2024 12:00

There was a similar case in Canada recently where one of these males sued a waxing salon for refusing him service, with the reason given that the only employee available was a Muslim woman and it would be against her religious beliefs to touch him:

Carruthers said he called her back and explained that the female employee working that day was a practising Muslim who refrains from physical contact with males outside of her family.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onhrt/doc/2024/2024hrto721/2024hrto721.html

2024 HRTO 721 (CanLII) | A.B. v. Mad Wax Windsor Inc. | CanLII

Access all information related to judgment A.B. v. Mad Wax Windsor Inc., 2024 HRTO 721 (CanLII) on CanLII.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onhrt/doc/2024/2024hrto721/2024hrto721.html

Codlingmoths · 26/06/2024 12:21

did the poor Muslim woman who works there have to do human rights training? Ugh.

Brefugee · 26/06/2024 13:18

zibzibara · 26/06/2024 12:00

There was a similar case in Canada recently where one of these males sued a waxing salon for refusing him service, with the reason given that the only employee available was a Muslim woman and it would be against her religious beliefs to touch him:

Carruthers said he called her back and explained that the female employee working that day was a practising Muslim who refrains from physical contact with males outside of her family.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onhrt/doc/2024/2024hrto721/2024hrto721.html

CBA to wade through dry court docs, what was the actual outcome? Was it Yaniv again?

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UpThePankhurst · 26/06/2024 14:40

When it comes to men with transgender identities it always comes down to a basic choice, doesn't it?

If they win, then women of orthodox religions, disabled women, traumatised women, women wanting medical care and services, changing rooms, etc, must all lose.

It is not 'inclusion' if bringing a man into a women's space necessitates bumping those women out. And we cannot just provide those bumped-out women with a space of their own, because the man involved will immediately demand access to that space too, or else it's existence will be intolerable to him.

This is not a 'trans' issue, it is a man/woman issue.
Depriving women of resources and access (and equality in society) to give a man more freedom of self expression is male supremacism. It's gone way past sexism.
This blows apart protections for faith, culture, religious tolerance, disabled access etc but only for women, and only when it conflicts with the desires of a man.
There are no answers, no kindness or tolerance or ability to live and let live from the political movement involved, that would enable this to work for everyone equally.

You would be forgiven for reaching the conclusion that this movement is incompatible with other people's rights and freedoms. Which makes the basic question: do we abandon equality, inclusion, diversity, universal rights and access to society for some, so that this movement can have what it demands?

Basically, do we create a two tier male supremacist society in which men have more rights than women?

Bear in mind those who would rush to say 'but it doesn't affect me and I'm a woman (and I don't care about other women)' - you are only ever a few minutes away from discovering how it feels to be one of the women who is affected, very much.

GrumpyPanda · 26/06/2024 17:57

@Brefugee thanks for updating us. I'd seen yesterday's interview with the individual in question, but not this new article. Be interesting to see how this plays out.

One interest facet of this case - it looks like this is actually a Muslim-vs-Muslim conflict, given that the individual concerned is himself a Libyan refugee. All the more shocking he wasn't able to muster a modicum of empathy.

NitroNine · 26/06/2024 18:26

English version of article:

Trans woman sues McDonald's: Muslim employee refuses to share changing room
In a McDonald's branch in Berlin, a trans woman is denied access to the women's changing room. Now the case ends up in court and could have consequences.

Is McDonald's trans-hostile? On the outside, the company is colourful, with the Pride flag on their advertising & menus etc. According to trans woman Kylie, however, this is more appearance than reality. Until a few months ago, the Libyan still worked for the fast food giant - today she sits as a plaintiff in the Berlin Labour Court.

The reason for the legal dispute is quickly explained: A Muslim employee refused to share the changing room with a trans woman. After just a few minutes, it will become clear this Tuesday that it will take a lot of time to reach an agreement.

Transwoman Kylie has been working in the McDonald's branch in Berlin Central Station for four years. In the past, her transidentity did not play a role at work, only on weekends she put on women's clothes and took part in drag queen parties. But that was no longer enough for her. One day she told her colleagues that she would now like to be addressed by the name Kylie and would like to wear the McDonald's women's uniform in the future.
"The plaintiff did not inform her superior at any time that she is a woman from now on," says the company's lawyer. Said supervisor and all employees nevertheless took into account the wishes of today's plaintiff until an employee, Mrs. M., asked Kylie to leave the ladies' changing room and not to use it in the future. At least that's how the plaintiff's lawyer describes the incident before the labor court.

A clear case of "discrimination," at least for Kylie's lawyer. Subsequently, "disadvantages also arose, as Kylie was only provided with a storage room as a changing room." The plaintiff does not comment in the courtroom on that day, but then says that she actually did not want to come at all. Why did she come anyway? "The internet is going crazy."

Just a few hours before the conciliation proceeding in the labour court, the queer magazine Siegessäule published an interview with the trans woman. In it, she also makes accusations against her superiors, who supported Muslim employee and thus tolerated discrimination in the workplace. She has not resigned & wants to return to work soon after several months of loss of work due to health problems - again in the branch at the main station.

The mood in the hall is visibly tense, you can imagine the judge is looking for "as neutral as possible" words with which the facts can be described. In the opinion of the plaintiff's lawyer, the incident and the behavior of the superiors go "in the direction of sexual harassment". What Ms. M. says about this and whether she may also have felt harassed by Kylie's presence in the ladies' changing room remains unclear. She has not yet been called as a witness.

A payment of damages of 8000 euros is sought, but not accepted as a final solution by the plaintiff. She wants a long-term solution - the use of the women's changing room. McDonald's first agreed to a payment, then withdrew it and refers to "false claims of the plaintiff". The company had sought the conversation several times and in no way made discriminatory statements.

It stands for statement against statement. "I think it's best if all those involved gather and revise the indictment," says the judge after just under an hour. However, she also points out that a pain and suffering payment will not resolve the conflict.
Only when a changing room is available that Kylie is allowed to use can the file be closed. Conversely, this would mean that all trans employees would have the right to their own changing rooms - and the company would have to retrofit in all 1400 German branches. The lawyer of the fast food giant did not want to comment to the Berliner Zeitung. When and how it will continue is currently unclear.

(I fixed the issues with the autotranslated page basically, but yell if I missed something!)

Brefugee · 26/06/2024 18:58

thanks @NitroNine

@GrumpyPanda i saw he's from Libya. Not sure if he's muslim though, i hadn't seen any info on that. But Libyan men trying to oppress (muslim) women? Quelle Surprise/Was für eine Überraschung!

I worked for a Libyan company once. Misogynists to a man.

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NitroNine · 26/06/2024 22:31

That’s ok @Brefugee - there were just a couple of bits in the auto translate that made no sense at all (reminiscent of the glory days of Babelfish) & I tidied the start (& a couple of other places) a little so everyone can get the sense of the article as it was written.

The autotranslate in “Harry Potter: Magic Awakened” regularly does peculiar things to people’s messages (happily I’ve usually read the original first & either understood or got the sense of it) so I didn’t trust that the Berliner Zeitung wasn’t going to get done dirty if left to autotranslate.

Catsmere · 26/06/2024 23:24

@UpThePankhurst you've summed up the whole purpose of this movement. Unfettered male supremacism.

GrumpyPanda · 28/06/2024 19:49

Here's a German-language Twitter thread pulling together various sources. Significantly, one of the people depicted with "Kylie" is Germany's "queer commissioner" Sven Lehmann, a gay Green party MP and rabid TRA who'd been vocally advocating against single-sex exemptions (the "sauna clause") in the new Self-ID law.
https://x.com/ronalyze/status/1806743403549331811

x.com

https://x.com/ronalyze/status/1806743403549331811

GrumpyPanda · 28/06/2024 19:53

Even worse- here's a fawning article by a legal periodical on the Aunt Lydias a.k.a. "Queerfeministinnen" apparently representing both the Erlangen and the Berlin dudes. Or should that be dudettes?

anwaltsblatt.anwaltverein.de/de/themen/kanzlei-praxis/aktivist-innen-fuer-ein-besseres-rechtssystem

zibzibara · 28/06/2024 21:33

Brefugee · 26/06/2024 13:18

CBA to wade through dry court docs, what was the actual outcome? Was it Yaniv again?

The salon owner has to pay $35,000 to this male as compensation, and all salon employees, including the Muslim woman who didn't want to wax any male, were ordered to attend a human rights indoctrination.

zibzibara · 28/06/2024 21:36

It's almost certainly not Yaniv this time, the court granted anonymity but then the judgement gives enough info about him to narrow it down to two possible males of this variety, and probably just one based on the timeline.

Catsmere · 28/06/2024 21:38

zibzibara · 28/06/2024 21:33

The salon owner has to pay $35,000 to this male as compensation, and all salon employees, including the Muslim woman who didn't want to wax any male, were ordered to attend a human rights indoctrination.

They can never help revealing that "human rights" really means "dick rights", can they?

Crouton19 · 28/06/2024 22:04

This stuff needs to go to the courts and be reported for people to really see what is going on and push their political representatives to do something. How are any self-styled liberal governments going to handle the conflict of religious rights against trans demands? I don't see the GRA being repealed but we might one day see countries roll back on self-ID.

Catsmere · 28/06/2024 23:43

zibzibara · 28/06/2024 21:50

Yes and they're so depressingly brazen about it.

Like this from the UN earlier this week,

https://www.thepublica.com/un-agrees-to-ban-afghan-women-from-attending-taliban-meeting-on-human-rights/

Makes it so obvious this movement is part of a massive attack on women's rights worldwide.

GrumpyPanda · 29/06/2024 00:57

zibzibara · 28/06/2024 21:33

The salon owner has to pay $35,000 to this male as compensation, and all salon employees, including the Muslim woman who didn't want to wax any male, were ordered to attend a human rights indoctrination.

JFC.

Brefugee · 30/06/2024 11:33

thanks.

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