Andrew Gold's Heretics Podcast Discusses 'Transmaxxing' With Sascha Bailey

[UtopiaPlanitia]

I'm watching this video at the minute and thought it might be of interest to other FWR peeps.

The video description is as follows:

Sascha Bailey - son of iconic photographer David - describes how close he came to becoming a woman and fears for other young people like him: 'Society has a gun to its head. You're either for children changing their gender, or you are transphobic'. Today, he discusses the bizarre incel-led subsculture of transmaxxing.

Well, this interview went contrary to my expectations and was a fascinating wander through the experiences and thoughts of a young man who grew up online and absorbed not such great advice and information from a hyper-permissive culture. He has an interesting perspective on things, even on the things where I definitely disagree with him I found him engaging enough to want to hear what he thought.

I think his decision to speak publicly about his experiences is a useful one, both for him and for any young men who could be helped by hearing what he's been through and how he's come out of it and made a life for himself.

As with all public figures with a confessional story, take it with a pinch of salt because you're only getting one perspective of events, but I think it's worth a listen.

Edited to add that I think having a well-spoken young man from a relatively privileged background speaking about the fetish and sexual reasons that can be involved in transition is a benefit for women's campaigning on the issues involved. It brings it into the open for people who might otherwise want to ignore that element.

I've had some good conversations with him on Twitter; he's really interesting and thoughtful. And passionate about stopping other young men from falling into the same trap.

He's describing to a T the online harms associated with all this and who has been influencing WPATH and why

From what he's describing in terms of his research he's on the similar trails as Gluck and reduxx and co.

Although - clearly naive in many respects; his idea that some TW should/ could go to women's prison illustrates that he's not getting the feminist argument at all.

He describes concerning ideas and movements online (led by a "Nazi Norwegian" man) that are ultimately leading to be celebrated and enacted in schools and paediatrics which is fucking horrific

Feels in line with a 2018 thread:

Donna Zuckerberg: ‘Social media has elevated misogyny to new levels of violence’

In the summer of 2015, she noticed an unprecedented level of traffic towards a piece entitled “Why is stoicism having a cultural moment?” and went down a rabbit hole to determine why. The results stunned her: men – or rather, misogynists – were using an armchair enthusiasm for the classics to justify manifestos of hate against women. The results were spreading online under a pseudo-intellectual guise, twisting ancient world philosophy to buttress a contemporary hatred of feminism. And it wasn’t a one-off.
...
But in the case of stoicism’s sudden revival, Zuckerberg found that an active corner of Reddit was applying Hellenistic philosophy to explain the pain and hardship white western men were suffering in the 21st century. Except these men didn’t consider themselves angry – they considered themselves oppressed.

“The ancient world was deeply misogynistic – it was a time when there was no word for rape, feminism did not exist and women’s actions were determined by male relatives,” says Zuckerberg. But now the classical texts are being “distorted and stripped of context” online to lend gravitas to campaigns of misogyny and white supremacy. Not only is it toxic but, as Zuckerberg calmly outlines in her new book, Not All Dead White Men , it is deeply dangerous.

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/11/donna-zuckerberg-social-media-misoyny-violence-classical-antiquity-not-all-dead-white-men

He thinks "pretty" men belong in female prisons.

Enough said.

I was surprised by the way they discussed that it's easier to be a woman because people are kinder to you in everyday transactions. The door holding example felt pathetic.

I have memories of literally having one of my arms in a cast and being relieved to see that the cashier packed the bag for the young man in front of me. No, she didn't pack mine. I asked, she refused.

The number of times I've seen women in a launderette sort laundry for a man where they don't seem to feel the impulse for (say) and older woman with obvious mobility and dexterity issues.

I think some men are oblivious to how many minor hassles they don't have to contend with in a day because the perception is that women can't do much about it when they experience unpleasant/threatening interactions. It was interesting when they acknowledged that incels would plausibly find being followed home and SA'd a validation.

</grumble>

I read an article about it by him before. He has some insights. He hasn't fully got it, which perhaps isn't surprising as he isn't a woman.

Andrew Gold challenged that ridiculous idea, and he quoted Kate Coleman from KPSS on the subject, and Sascha then agreed that vulnerable men could be placed in a secure wing in the sort of place police officers are put when they’re in prison. So I think he can change his mind when given better information from women i. e. from KPSS which is what we want men to be able to do.

That was one of the areas where I definitely disagreed with him strongly - I think, like most men, he doesn’t see the background level of shite that women have to put up on a daily basis moving around in the world. But Gold and he both admitted that they aren’t women and can’t see things from women’s perspective, and that incels and transmaxxers can’t possibly see things from a female perspective either, so I hope that’s the beginning of wisdom on this issue for them.

In comparison to a man like Peter Boghossian, I think Gold and Bailey seem more open minded and able to consider the female perspective so I hope more men watch their videos rather than Boghossian challenging women for not being trained as ninjas so we can fight off violent men.

It would seem so and it’s great that he’s up front in mentioning the level of perversion that exists in the type of men who seek to influence younger men in these harmful ways.

And probably, because he’s male, he’ll likely be taken more seriously by 'The Internet' than Reduxx despite them being at the front line of reporting this stuff for years. But I have recently seen Reduxx and Genevieve mentioned and praised for their reporting by US media figures with big platforms so I am hopeful that their hard work is reaching a wider audience.

I thought he was saying he could see why some male people could be at risk of harm in a male prison, eg TWs who pass, and ex-police were then mentioned. He didn't say they should be in womens prisons, IIRC.

I think it’s a great interview

He is self obsessed, borderline narcicist? Or is he genuinely coming from a good place? He says ok to pit men in wokens orisone if they are pretty , em what level of intelligence, empathy, understanding does that show? Hes 29 not 9.

Andrew has started a Substack and his first post details the cancellation of various events on his book tour:

https://andrewgoldheretics.substack.com/p/cancelled

We hear talk of cancellation, but don’t often consider what it feels like day by day for someone to go through it. For example, the night before going to press, I had an unexpected call from my literary hero, Jon Ronson, asking that his praise be removed from the endorsements on the cover of my book - despite it having nothing to do with the culture wars. That was gutting.
To be fair to him, unlike the others who cancelled or distanced themselves from me, Jon is not overly-sensitive about the culture wars - but he considered some of my work to be too divisive.

Could anyone even pretend to muster a buttergasp at the news of this action by Ronson? (AG's Substack.) As for the rest, yes, I'm a little surprised that AG didn't anticipate this. Didn't he think what had happened to so many of the women he'd interviewed could happen to him?

https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/benjamin-butterworth-buttergasp-gasp-bigotry-butterworth-gif-22921287

I can imagine surprise at a specific person ringing to ask to be removed- though at least it offers the opportunity to talk directly to them.

But I don’t agree that we ‘… don’t often consider what it feels like day by day…’.

He may not. I’m pretty sure women here are continuously horrified at the personal cost women are enduring. We are very aware of the campaign of harassment women endure when they stick their head above the parapet- from police process as punishment, to losing work, having to challenge disciplinary hearings etc etc.

If he hasn’t considered what it feels like to be cancelled then that’s an empathy deficit on him.

Kryptonite, I think Andrew’s description of Jon Ronson not being overly sensitive about the culture wars is incredibly naive - Ronson has been po-faced and sanctimonious for years about (and to) people he disagrees with.

Andrew obviously sees his new podcast as an extension of his work examining cults and cultish beliefs but didn’t seem to have realised that his media pals were believers in (or kowtowed to ) the new genderist and DEI cults he wanted to examine and critique.

You make a good point AGlinnerOfHope, I think the idea of people being cancelled for their beliefs was a bit academic and concentrated in religious cults for Andrew until it happened to him in an environment he wouldn’t initially have considered cult-like. Sadly, he knows better now and I give him credit for keeping going with his Heretics podcast and creating a Substack rather than giving up.