NZ - TW in sports

[FizzyLemons]

The new NZ coalition government was supposed to be stopping funding to sports that allowed TW to compete as/against women. This badly written article states (I think) that they have decided to have another think about it.

This is particularly pertinent to me this week as my 17yo daughter plays high level netball for her school, in the top grade in our city, most other teams are adult. At their last game there was a player of questionable sex. I knew the Netball NZ rules are that men can play if they meet some criteria (I've just looked that up and it's unclear - in one place it says after surgery or with reduced testosterone, and next line says if they declare they are a woman). But this is the first time we've actually experienced it. Of course, we don't know for sure that this 6 foot 4, huge overweight person with broad shoulders and narrow hips and a manly face was a man. But it made for such an unfair game. One of our younger players got an 'accidental' fist to the face, and there were several incidents of players being knocked over. Netball is not a non-contact sport any more.

DD was very vocal to her team and coach after the game that it was a man, most other players didn't say anything. The coach said she thought it was probably a woman. I mentioned to a friend involved in netball who said she's pretty sure they 'used to be a man' (said with a shrug of the shoulders).

But what do you do?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/new-zealand-government-revises-status-on-transgender-athletes-in-community-sport/OO3XC4OGCNF65AWGX2HNUYSARE/

The trouble is that the government - any government - will only reflect what they perceive public opinion to be on this.

I am in NZ too and have been horrified by the use of the language 'anti-trans' in our media to describe those with feminist beliefs. I truly think the tide of public opinion is turning in NZ, but too many are afraid to speak up for fear of being accused of bigotry and hate. I work in education and am ashamed to say that makes me far less vocal than I would like to be for fear of violating our code of conduct. Private conversations with friends suggest to me that many feel the same way.

I'm not sure how we move forward, and as a mother of two girls it worries me.

So does the group leadership know if this person is male? Are you/your daughter assuming?

We should not be making assumptions based on visuals or general characteristics. I know women that are …

“6 foot 4, huge overweight person with broad shoulders and narrow hips and a manly face”

I wouldn’t have used the term “huge” to describe anyone but it seems weird that you’re making accusations that you have no way of proving (unless of course you’re going through some formal process with the authorities?)

Are you just here to shame everyone who thinks outside your tiny misogynistic box? Is there an organised disruptor rota or can anyone join?
Chiding people for "making assumptions" by calling them "weird" seems like double standards, but you do you.

I am in Scotland -I feel these small countries fall over themselves to be seen as a world leader in inclusiveness so the leaders can strut on the world stage and big themselves up -infuriating whilst the actual problems in their countries which are difficult to fix get hidden eg horrendous drug probs in Scotland and gang violence (or similar) in NZ.
They’ve small pops so hard for individuals to put their head above the parapet.

None of your conspiracies…

I'm just remembering a month or so ago when Mumsnet targeted a woman athlete for looking too manly in some photos.

Everyone was oh so sorry then and swore they would be more thoughtful in the future and yet here we are.

yes this could have been a trans woman. But similarly we have no proof of that.

has the op or her daughter made an actual complaint or just moaned to this people/internet boards.

There are lots of women who aren't conventionally "feminine" in sport but it is still obvious that they are women.
If you think someone isn't a woman or a girl then they probably aren't.
Women getting injured in sport because of stronger male bodied people playing against them isn't fair.
Really difficult in NZ when the main media is so captured by TWAW ideology.

It's disgusting OP. Your daughter sounds amazing. I have no idea what you can do in the face of such appalling misogyny - this issue will get worse no doubt.

You have to video it. No one believes it’s a problem until they see the size discrepancy.

If people never "moaned to this people/Internet boards[sic]" about men in women's sports, then by now none of the governing bodies would still have single sex rules anyway. It's only by highlighting the cases of unfair male participation that pressure has been put on these organisations to protect the female category.

Except we have NO proof that this person wasn’t allowed to participate.

just a vague description that could be anyone - yes a man, or a trans woman, or a woman.

we talk a lot on here about not making assumptions about sex based on stereotypes. And that’s all the OP has offered.

Oh give over FFS.

JustTalkToThem · Today 07:55
just a vague description that could be anyone - yes a man, or a trans woman, or a woman.

FTFY

Ok. My point still stands.

6 foot 4 women are extremely rare.

Absolutely they are. As are measuring tapes on netball courts.

But assuming OP is in good faith, and this individual was more male than just being tall and broad shouldered and narrow hipped, OP and their daughter have a strong case.

I just doubt a number of those things.

I appreciate your comment and as a smaller woman, most people are tall to me.

But do you realise the tactics you are using here?
*immediate disbelief of the things reported

• immediately insulting the poster calling her "weird"
• scolding the op because other people misgendered someone
• accused op of "moaning" on an Internet board

More importantly, you have dismissed the perceptions and beliefs of the adult woman OP and her 17yo daughter and told them that what they saw and experienced doesn't matter.

If they think they saw and/or played against a man, I believe them.

Why don't you?

Because this movement - as much as any - is ripe for trolling, riling and sensationalizing.

I don’t believe random people on the internet who post with few details, no concrete information and click-baity stories. There are enough true, proven, real stories out there instead of getting all silly over any individual, completely unsubstantiated post.

So why are you here then? It's all individual, anonymous, unsubstantiated posts??

Go and read the news.

Except this board actually have smart, thoughtful women who highlight and talk about actual issues.

I don’t alway agree with them, but I do think the board is bette r than grabbing pitchforks for any random poster with clickbait stories.

But sure, I can go off and read the news.

Wow so many replies. My point was that I don't know for sure if they were a man or woman, but I know what they looked like and if it was a man, that appears to be perfectly OK and within the rules of Netball NZ.

I didn't accuse anyone of anything, I didn't post a photo and ask for opinions (although I wish I had taken a photo), I didn't stand up and shout 'Man!', and I don't intend complaining about this person. I may complain about policy though as I don't think it is safe, let alone fair.

Regarding the height, I'm pretty sure on this. I'm 6 foot tall and our player marking this person is my height. This person was a good few inches taller than our player. But it wasn't really the height that is the issue, there are lots of tall netball players. It was the physical bulk, the reach of the arms and the overall strength.

Yes, I'd agree with this. NZ is generally quite slow on the uptake but then will take things to the extreme and we're going all out with this stuff. Even though I have yet to speak to someone in real life who actually believes it. NZ has dreadful social problems and no one seems to have any idea how to fix those, so they focus on other things.

Yes, I wish I had. Actually, someone probably did as the games are usually videoed.

6ft 4 is objectively a huge-sized human.

Why shame people for observing that?

I've seen plenty of tall women. I don't think, in my lifetime, I've ever seen a woman who's 6' 4". Not saying they don't exist, but they must be vanishingly rare.

I know a few women over 6ft, but none are mistakable for a man - they don’t have man sized feet and hands or a male sized skull. They all have female gait and none routinely knock other women flying. They don’t look like men at all, they just look like unusually tall women.

The tallest man I know is a little over 7ft, as you can imagine being that tall is extremely unusual and requires some specialist products.
My friend prefers to date women who are as close to his height as possible (for practical reasons and for better understanding of each other’s challenges) and he does quite a bit of socialising with other extremely tall people via a club for tall people. That club states that the average height of their female members is 6ft 1.

https://www.tallclub.co.uk/join