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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Brontes have been 'queered'

237 replies

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 07:44

For Pride month, the Bronte Parsonage museum has posted a number of Facebook posts exploring the Brontes and 'gender identity'

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/eGENRmGQPkz7omY5/

The posts talk about the Brontes using 'androgynous' pseudonyms, rather than the male pseudonyms they were necessitated to use due to the sexism of the times they lived in 😕

It hasn't gone down well. Comments were disabled, and the museum posted about commitment to equality and diversity and not tolerating bullying and hatred (I haven't seen evidence of this, just a lot of people outraged about history being rewritten to suit a narrative).

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https://www.facebook.com/share/p/eGENRmGQPkz7omY5

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11
AthenaBasil · 20/06/2024 09:32

Ingenieur · 20/06/2024 09:13

The gender of the authors was hotly debated

Interesting that they are using gender here as a synonym for sex, because contemporary critics were absolutely not debating gender in the way it is sometimes meant now...

They always muddle sex and gender when it suits them and then jump on critics to correct them on the usage.

BackToLurk · 20/06/2024 09:34

Flickersy · 20/06/2024 08:13

I'm posting screenshots for those who don't have FB. Apart from the idea that Lucy (a character) played a gender queer role, everything else here is historically accurate and although I think it's a stretch to shoehorn it into Pride week, it's true that the sisters used androgynous publishing names because of expectations around mens and women's roles in society at the time.

The museum uses the term ‘gender identity’ which in the context of Pride has a very specific meaning related to someone’s innate feeling about their gender. To use that about the Brontës is at best presumptuous.

MagpiePi · 20/06/2024 09:36

Sausagenbacon · 20/06/2024 09:21

I am usually the first to dislike all this.
But Shirley (by Charlotte B) was quite a shocking thing at the time because the heroine was called by what was then a man's name. I read it so long ago, that I can't remember much more than that, but didn't the heroine behave in a way outside of the gender stereotypes at the time?
I'm not banging the drum for one side or the other, but a stopped clock is right twice a day, and maybe it is worth exploring.

But so what? It was a work of imagination. If she had written a story from the perspective of a dog having human thoughts and emotions would we have to conclude that she was actually a furry?

Having to look at everything through the lens of gender ideology is so tiresome and such a clunky way of trying to prove that it is real now because it was supposedly real in the past.

MrsWhattery · 20/06/2024 09:40

Actually the Brontë pen names can be much more realistically compared to JK Rowling, who also published under an ambiguous name (with the K inspired by another woman) because she was told by publishers that a female name would mean less success.

Zeugma · 20/06/2024 09:41

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 20/06/2024 09:30

I cant see any relevance in arguing whether 'Currer' or 'Ellis' were given names or not; if you looked hard enough you’d probably find one or two people with that name, but it’s beside the point as far as I can see

Theres a rather lovely theory (which you probably already know as a member of the society), that they may have been the surnames of two published female authors and the female owner of one of the most extensive libraries of the time, which, if indeed the case, would be a great FU to the patriarchy of the time.

Yes, as surnames they were known to the Brontës but I was more reacting to the derail around 'they weren’t ever used as given names'. It's nice to think they chose the surnames of women, though!

viques · 20/06/2024 09:42

I am waiting for someone to take their life in their hands and re gender JKR, after all, JKR chose a male pseudonym to write the Cormoran Strike books. Isn’t that sending a secret message to everyone, shock horror!

PriOn1 · 20/06/2024 09:45

MrsSkylerWhite · 20/06/2024 08:51

The implication of the posts is that they chose androgynous names as they were playing around with their 'gender identity'. Not that they had no choice but to do this to stand a chance of being published (and to avoid the scandal of a woman having written about the topics they covered). It's a dishonest representation of what they were doing.”

How do you know that they weren’t?

Because “gender identity” is a recent, postmodern invention, with no basis in reality.

It is being used here to obscure the extreme sexism of the time the Brontë sisters lived in. To suggest they were “playing with their gender identity” when the fact is that they were forced to assume pseudonyms to even be considered for publication is a frivolous and insulting suggestion.

Chersfrozenface · 20/06/2024 09:45

But so what? It was a work of imagination. If she had written a story from the perspective of a dog having human thoughts and emotions would we have to conclude that she was actually a furry?

'Black Beauty' is written in the first person as the autobiography of a horse.

Next up: Anna Sewell was a furry.

Grammarnut · 20/06/2024 09:52

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 08:07

The implication of the posts is that they chose androgynous names as they were playing around with their 'gender identity'. Not that they had no choice but to do this to stand a chance of being published (and to avoid the scandal of a woman having written about the topics they covered). It's a dishonest representation of what they were doing.

Exactly. You have put it better than I ever could.

SlothOnARope · 20/06/2024 09:52

https://paulineclooney.com/2016/12/30/the-mystery-of-the-brontes-pseudonyms/

In which year did common sense officially die?

These names were masks, totally unrelated to sex/gender identity. They were terrified of being discovered. Interesting that their father also adapted his surname Prunty to Bronte and it seems the children may have used the same idea with Bell adapted from the French "belle" which has female connotations. See above link for these and other far more interesting and believable reasons for the Brontes' choice of pseudonyms. Currer and Acton were probably inspired by people they knew.

The mystery of the Brontë’s pseudonyms.

If you watched the Drama #Towalkinvisible last night on BBC about the Brontës it may have struck you how little attention was given to the pseudonyms adopted by the sisters, other than an invisible…

https://paulineclooney.com/2016/12/30/the-mystery-of-the-brontes-pseudonyms

PriOn1 · 20/06/2024 09:53

viques · 20/06/2024 09:42

I am waiting for someone to take their life in their hands and re gender JKR, after all, JKR chose a male pseudonym to write the Cormoran Strike books. Isn’t that sending a secret message to everyone, shock horror!

Edited

Well even JK Rowling was chosen as it was unclear what sex she was. Not as much has changed as we could have wished over the last 200 years.

OldCrone · 20/06/2024 09:54

Flickersy · 20/06/2024 09:27

A PP asked for examples of Ellis as a given name for women.

I provided one.

That's a middle name. Surnames are often given as middle names for both sexes, as with the Bronte sisters' brother Branwell, who was actually Patrick Branwell Bronte, Branwell being their mother's surname before marriage. Sometimes, as in this case, the person becomes known by their middle name.

SnowFrogJelly · 20/06/2024 09:55

It's ridiculous.. they're doing the same with Shakespeare I heard on the radio last night

greencartbluecart · 20/06/2024 09:55

Forcing a gender identify on someone and ignoring the sexism they face is bullying
.. oh they said the comments were bullying ?

Grammarnut · 20/06/2024 09:56

They are saying something pretty odd about Lucy Snow.

SnowFrogJelly · 20/06/2024 09:56

SlothOnARope · 20/06/2024 09:52

https://paulineclooney.com/2016/12/30/the-mystery-of-the-brontes-pseudonyms/

In which year did common sense officially die?

These names were masks, totally unrelated to sex/gender identity. They were terrified of being discovered. Interesting that their father also adapted his surname Prunty to Bronte and it seems the children may have used the same idea with Bell adapted from the French "belle" which has female connotations. See above link for these and other far more interesting and believable reasons for the Brontes' choice of pseudonyms. Currer and Acton were probably inspired by people they knew.

Agree with this

Grammarnut · 20/06/2024 09:56

SnowFrogJelly · 20/06/2024 09:55

It's ridiculous.. they're doing the same with Shakespeare I heard on the radio last night

Don't tell me! Shakespeare was really Elizabeth I in doublet and hose?

Chersfrozenface · 20/06/2024 09:57

viques · 20/06/2024 09:42

I am waiting for someone to take their life in their hands and re gender JKR, after all, JKR chose a male pseudonym to write the Cormoran Strike books. Isn’t that sending a secret message to everyone, shock horror!

Edited

Already been done. Including on this very forum.

Or at least accusing JKR of hypocrisy because "she has no issue changing her sex to serve her purposes, yet she castigates those who do".

Due to her noms de plumes.

YouJustDoYou · 20/06/2024 09:58

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 08:28

What is the relevance of posting this during pride month then?

AND with the multitransgaywhatever flag banner displayed right over the museums own comments....

OldCrone · 20/06/2024 10:00

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 20/06/2024 09:20

It is certainly meant to be masculine. As were they all. In Charlotte’s own words, in fact, as quoted by PP above.

It's not meant to be masculine, she describes it as an 'ambiguous choice'.

Adverse to personal publicity, we veiled our own names under those of Currer, Ellis, and Acton Bell; the ambiguous choice being dictated by a sort of conscientious scruple at assuming Christian names positively masculine, while we did not like to declare ourselves women – without at that time suspecting that our mode of writing and thinking was not what is called ‘feminine’ – we had a vague impression that authoresses are liable to be looked on with prejudice[.]”

That reads to me as though they didn't want to pretend that their books were written by men, but at the same time didn't want to declare that they were written by women. Many female authors have done this, even a lot more recently (JK Rowling).

viques · 20/06/2024 10:02

PriOn1 · 20/06/2024 09:53

Well even JK Rowling was chosen as it was unclear what sex she was. Not as much has changed as we could have wished over the last 200 years.

True.

Triestre · 20/06/2024 10:06

Wherever fits pushing the agenda. 🙄

NoBinturongsHereMate · 20/06/2024 10:10

MrsWhattery · 20/06/2024 09:25

The Brontes and their characters behaved outside gender stereotypes. That is feminism, not queer theory. Neither they nor their characters were any less female for breaking stereotypes. Either in reality, or in the views of people at the time and the brontes themselves.

Queer theory promotes the idea that the stereotypes you cling to actually indicate your sex. That by breaking a stereotype imposed on women, you’re actually not a woman. In other words, that stereotypes should be upheld.

Edited

This.

Discussing their need to disguise their sex, to overcome sexism, would be an absolutely approriate thing to do in Women's History Month. It has nothing to do with Pride. Implying that it does obscures the sexism they faced and the bravery it took to overcome it. It's belittling their achievements and it's offensive.

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 20/06/2024 10:13

Gender gender gender. When the word they are looking for is SEX. Idiotic nonsense. As for gender queer - my brain switches off and my eyes roll so far back in my head.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/06/2024 10:13

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 07:44

For Pride month, the Bronte Parsonage museum has posted a number of Facebook posts exploring the Brontes and 'gender identity'

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/eGENRmGQPkz7omY5/

The posts talk about the Brontes using 'androgynous' pseudonyms, rather than the male pseudonyms they were necessitated to use due to the sexism of the times they lived in 😕

It hasn't gone down well. Comments were disabled, and the museum posted about commitment to equality and diversity and not tolerating bullying and hatred (I haven't seen evidence of this, just a lot of people outraged about history being rewritten to suit a narrative).

Of course they had to change their names.

Pride month is destructive. People keep creating performative roles out of twists and manipulations to fit in with it.

It has come to the point of searching around for more and more to feed the beast.