Lesbian dating app to use facial recognition to exclude males

[zibzibara]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13484121/Lesbian-dating-app-use-facial-recognition-exclude-trans-women-matching-biological-females.html

This is from Jenny Watson who's known for fearlessly kicking out the males invading her lesbian speed dating events, now she's doing the same with a new dating app for women. Hopefully it will work as advertised but even if the usual crop of males manage to impose themselves through whatever deceitful trickery, it just further proves her point about how lesbians are being bullied out of their own spaces. Wishing her the best of luck with this!

But a little finger is not a skeleton, it's a bone...

Are you sure this AI face analyser is the one the app will be using? I don't see it mentioned in the article.

Well, it's more than one bone if you're being pedantic.

My point is that, skeletal remains may be not complete/not in good condition/mixed up with all kinds of other bones and junk, so depending what is in there it will affect the confidence of sex identification.

It won't work. Filters fuck everything up, nobody looks like themselves any more.

The real women just have to be prepared to turn on their heels and walk out if they are lied to. Stop being polite, just say "hell no" and go.

Except the methods used by osteo archaeologists to sex by skull features has a 10% error rate. It doesn’t seem too terribly high until you realise that a busy airport will process millions of passengers, meaning that hundreds of thousands will be tagged as the wrong sex.

That is also assuming the AI calculated skull morphology & flesh depth is 100% accurate, when it isn’t.

police aren’t even relying on AI
https://bigthink.com/the-present/facial-recognition-ai/

If the app is recording straight off the phone camera for the face verification wouldn't that stop people using filters to fool it?

There’s a whole range of issues with the technology, most of which can be resolved with better programming.

The remaining variability can be resolved by our attitude to it. If we accept it’s 10% inaccurate, and predominantly inaccurate in specific circumstances, we can act accordingly.

The issue would be treating it as 100% reliable when it isn’t.

Like, my robot vacuum is great. There are areas it fails, and I do those manually. No problem.

It’s not 100% or even 95% accurate by visual analysis.

Today archaeologists can ‘always tell’ because they have a DNA test done before they decide on and formally record the sex

But numerous studies have shown pretty large error margins since they have gone back and DNA tested skeletons that were sexed before DNA tests existed using visual analysis of bone structure alone.

AI facial recognition software can’t do a DNA test.

Interesting research. Though I was puzzled why she expected face recognition systems to know people's gender identity, or as she put it on her little homepage video "The demos didn't even distinguish between gender identity and biological sex" Even? How would it possibly know? Or does the entire world now announce their "gender identity"?

And I think that's the only time she mentioned "sex" - oherwise she uses the words "gender", "male" and "female" throughout.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation.

Technically speaking, Caucasian skin is more "evolved" than black skin, in the sense that we were all black once, but the people who moved to the far northern hemisphere evolved to have pale skin in response to the fact that they were becoming Vitamin D deficient (with the exception of the inuits who eat a mostly fish based diet).

But I don't see how bone structure would be affected by that.

Is it possible that dark skin shows less contrast in photos, making it more difficult for AI to analyse the bone structure underneath?

I wouldn’t say Caucasian skin is “more evolved” than Black skin, both are equally evolved to their environments. It’s not like Black skin is frozen in time back tens of thousands of years ago to where the white skin mutation happened and never evolved on it own from then in response to the climate changes in the global south.

All human skin has been evolving continuously, non stop.

I don't see how bone structure would be affected by that.

Climate affects facial bone structure massively. It also affects the overall skeleton too.

Yes I suppose you are right, it's just that Caucasian people's skin has evolved in a more visible way compared to their very distant ancestors.

I wonder how long it takes for skin to evolve in this way (i.e. how many generations) and how that will play out in the future given global warming, vastly increased global mobility and more interracial relationships. I read somewhere that humans are predicted to all be a fairly uniform shade of brown by the year 3000 but no idea how true that is.

Does it? Do you know why? (Sorry if this is a bit of a thread derail but I find this fascinating.)

True that the software might well differ. This thread is interesting in that ‘facial recognition AI’ is discussed (and treated) as if it’s just one facial recognition software. Whereas as mentioned there’s a multitude or plethora of different AI systems being developed including B2B vs B2C.

As training data is expensive and training an AI model vastly so, different systems use different individual image training data sets. For example, one of the most significant training sets in the history of AI was ImageNet, but which was highly criticised for its sexist, homophobia, and racist labelling of images.

The bottom line might be for Jenny or others to ask the software provider which image data training set was used to develop their software as many have subsequently been discredited.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice many many police forces are relying on AI though that might not being reported as much as it should.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay I hadn’t noticed that about Joy differentiating ‘gender’ from sex, but she is in academia in the US… I like Kate Crawford’s work but she repeatedly uses the word ‘gender’ when I think (hope that) she means sex?

It’s to adapt to the climate. Nose size and shape (and the nasal cavity of the skull) is geared to maximise moisture retention, or body temperature regulation in hot/cold, wet/dry palaces.
Hot places tend to have a muscoskeletal norm of taller, slimmer body type than colder places (after nutritional differences accounted for).
High altitude places result in much larger lung capacity/lungs and a bigger rib cage to match.

I’d have to go crack some books for more examples.

Was going to say the same. I'm a bit masculine in the face and I have a very pretty, feminine looking teen son. But if I look at our lip bows, brow ridges and the area between eyes and eyebrows, they're in line with what sex we actually are.

I expect most women's brains make this analysis subconsciously in fractions of a second when looking at faces.

I expect most women's brains make this analysis subconsciously in fractions of a second when looking at faces.

Well a lot are definitely wrong in their opinion in my experience- some are outright paranoid to the point of psychosis about secret men.

Women are paranoid. Who would have thought. Soon we'd all be fainting from hysteria.

What would it take for people to stop minimising women's worries?

Some women are worried about men in their spaces reserved for dignity. You don't get it fine. But don't undermine another woman's worry.

I've had some trawl through my facebook taking innocent comments and illustrations I had as signs I was secretly a man. Sometimes they were literally seeing things that weren't there.

I understand the worry as I'm female, LGB, and gender critical too.

But people have been traumatisingly awful in the name of this movement to the extent it's put me off the whole movement.

This definitely happens and it is frustrating that many women in the debate deny that it happens. Other women will admit they do it, but deflect and say if they mistake a woman for a man larping as a woman, then it is the fault of transgender ideology that they have to be like this and the women they abuse should not blame them at all, should just stop whinging and be proud to take one for the team.

I don’t agree with that at all. Traumatising other women is not justifiable collateral damage.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice When they realised they could be wrong, one of these 'feminists' said 'either way, what an uggo.'

I see uglier people than me every day of the week, I just am not ugly in a 'feminine' way apparently.

You're all getting too obsessed over the technology, and there are (perhaps not here) bad actors who say "well it doesn't quite work, so best get rid of it and let men in".

The main thing with this is to be off-putting to male chancers, it sends a message that any man identifying as a lesbian is not welcome. In some cases I think some men are so self-deluded they think that self-identification is going to work, perhaps some others think they can force themselves onto lesbians with the woman in question not wanting to appeared bigoted.

No need for technology if men just stopped trying to force their way into female only spaces.

Gosh, wouldn’t that be a novel (rather wonderful) idea 👍