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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender as performance or as innate essence

83 replies

SaltPorridge · 14/06/2024 20:56

Why is it that kids talk about "coming out" as trans when they change their names and ask to be treated as the opposite sex/gender? Yet I also see references to gender as a performance, which seems to come from Judith Butler.
Where did the idea of an innate gender that is unrelated to sex come from?

OP posts:
BezMills · 17/06/2024 09:49

I think you got away with it

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/06/2024 14:52

SaltPorridge · 17/06/2024 07:13

You wore a tie as part of a uniform. If an influential woman wears a tie outside of that context, then it makes tie wearing more possible and if lots of women wear ties in that way tie-wearing could lose its masculine gender coding.
A woman who wears a tie as part of a costume intended to code her as masculine doesn't break the coding but strengthens it.
At my daughter's sixth form, the dress code specifies that boys wear shirts and ties, and girls wear "smart office wear". In the first week the Headteacher gathered them and reminded them of the dress code. My daughter's frriendship group is mostly trans, so the girls were dutifully wearing ties. The rest of the kids had on a loose interpretation of the rules, and most of the boys had no ties on. (It's deeply last century for men to wear ties here.) The Head tried to reiterate the rules and was reduced to saying "those of the tie- wearing persuasion" had to wear ties or else they will get an Extended Study Day.

I went to an all-girls school, and then a mixed-sex school, my school tie wasn’t intended to code me as masculine it was simply part of the uniform. Just like the school blazer, it was intended to show the public what school I was attending because it was made in the school colours. Our teachers frequently told us that we were expected to behave well in public while wearing our school uniform because we were representing the school and its values. I also suspect that, on a practical level, schools here insist on ties for all students because it looks tidier than open-necked shirts.

I’m afraid that I don’t understand your point that girls wearing a tie as part of school uniform is strengthening masculine coding for clothes. I think they’re adhering to formality and to communality because uniforms create a social bond among children - everyone wearing the same clothes means a school spirit can develop and there are no opportunities for social distinction to develop caused by some students wearing expensive clothing that other students can’t afford. Uniforms also prevent students from signalling teenage tribes via dress or hairstyles while at school which can serve to create distractions from learning and differences among students. To my mind, ties, like school blazers and school scarves, are a way of identifying a student as being from a particular school (they’re practical in that they serve as walking advertisements for schools and they make uniforms look more coordinated and tidier).

Re your daughter’s school, I think the school created a problem for itself in letting children wear their own clothes. The school could make all students in every year wear a school uniform and that issue re signalling ideology/identity wouldn’t arise - every student either wears a school tie or doesn’t as part of the uniform code.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/06/2024 15:42

popebishop · 15/06/2024 17:47

It's not necessarily a consistent or lasting state. But I wouldn't get too hung up on Butler - it's not really what most people are referring to when they talk about gender.

"Philosopher and feminist theorist Judith Butler offered a new, more Continental (specifically, Foucauldian) reading of the notion of performativity, which has its roots in linguistics and philosophy of language. They describe performativity as "that reiterative power of discourse to produce the phenomena that it regulates and constrains."[9] They have largely used this concept in their analysis of gender development.[10]
The concept places emphasis on the manners by which identity is passed or brought to life through discourse. Performative acts are types of authoritative speech. This can only happen and be enforced through the law or norms of the society. These statements, just by speaking them, carry out a certain action and exhibit a certain level of power. Examples of these types of statements are declarations of ownership, baptisms, inaugurations, and legal sentences. Something that is key to performativity is repetition.[11] The statements are not singular in nature or use and must be used consistently in order to exert power.[12]

Performance theory and gender perspectives
Butler explains gender as constructed by repeated acts. Acts that people come to perform in the mode of belief which cite existing norms, analogous to a script. Butler sees gender not as an expression of what one is but as something that one does. The appearance of a gendered essence is merely a "performative accomplishment".[13] Furthermore, they do not see it as socially imposed on a self that is prior to gender, as the self is not distinct from the categories which constitute it. According to Butler's theory, homosexuality and heterosexuality are not fixed categories. For Butler, a person is merely in a condition of "doing straightness" or "doing queerness," where these categories are not natural but historical and socially constititued.[14]
"For Butler, the distinction between the personal and the political or between private and public is itself a fiction designed to support an oppressive status quo: our most personal acts are, in fact, continually being scripted by hegemonic social conventions and ideologies".[15]"

Thing is, I pretty much agree with all of this stuff. I simply don't see how it leads to the conclusion that we need to replace all existing sex based rights, protections and language with exactly the same but aligned to performative gender instead, nor why people who don't enact the repetition/construction of gender are nevertheless swept into the gender buckets because of their sex when sex itself is considered subordinate to gender.

SaltPorridge · 17/06/2024 15:49

It's a sixth form. Where we live, it is unusual for sixth forms to have a uniform. They have a dress code instead. This sixth form has separate dress codes for boys and girls.
The sixth form girls who chose to wear ties identify as trans and are signalling their masculine gender identity by adopting the masculine dress code.

OP posts:
FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/06/2024 16:28

SaltPorridge · 17/06/2024 07:13

You wore a tie as part of a uniform. If an influential woman wears a tie outside of that context, then it makes tie wearing more possible and if lots of women wear ties in that way tie-wearing could lose its masculine gender coding.
A woman who wears a tie as part of a costume intended to code her as masculine doesn't break the coding but strengthens it.
At my daughter's sixth form, the dress code specifies that boys wear shirts and ties, and girls wear "smart office wear". In the first week the Headteacher gathered them and reminded them of the dress code. My daughter's frriendship group is mostly trans, so the girls were dutifully wearing ties. The rest of the kids had on a loose interpretation of the rules, and most of the boys had no ties on. (It's deeply last century for men to wear ties here.) The Head tried to reiterate the rules and was reduced to saying "those of the tie- wearing persuasion" had to wear ties or else they will get an Extended Study Day.

A woman who wears a tie as part of a costume intended to code her as masculine doesn't break the coding but strengthens it.

In theory yes, but in practice no, because the construction of "reality" through performative repetition depends not on the intention of the performer but on the meaning experienced by the audience, and the sex will be read over the gender. The tie works to confer an intention of masculinity on the trans man but the trans man's performance does not in turn strengthen the construction, so over time if all trans men wear ties they will cease to functional as a masculine construct.

If gender performance were entirely disconnected with sex, then people performing masculinity would reinforce masculinity regardless of their sex.

PrimaDoner · 17/06/2024 16:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/06/2024 16:28

A woman who wears a tie as part of a costume intended to code her as masculine doesn't break the coding but strengthens it.

In theory yes, but in practice no, because the construction of "reality" through performative repetition depends not on the intention of the performer but on the meaning experienced by the audience, and the sex will be read over the gender. The tie works to confer an intention of masculinity on the trans man but the trans man's performance does not in turn strengthen the construction, so over time if all trans men wear ties they will cease to functional as a masculine construct.

If gender performance were entirely disconnected with sex, then people performing masculinity would reinforce masculinity regardless of their sex.

Yes, this is kind of how fashion trickle down works.

10 years ago my 20-something friend in London came to meet me wearing a black dress and white trainers – looked cool and fresh.

10 years later, my friend’s 75-year old mum wore the same kind of look to a family meal in a suburban newtown in the north east.

The look no longer means what it originally meant.

thirdfiddle · 17/06/2024 17:00

The sixth form girls who chose to wear ties identify as trans and are signalling their masculine gender identity by adopting the masculine dress code.
And doubtless the boys who didn't want to wear ties would have happily identified as non-binary if pressed.

SaltPorridge · 17/06/2024 17:52

thirdfiddle · 17/06/2024 17:00

The sixth form girls who chose to wear ties identify as trans and are signalling their masculine gender identity by adopting the masculine dress code.
And doubtless the boys who didn't want to wear ties would have happily identified as non-binary if pressed.

No. They wear the cheapest ties, often clipped on, and put them in their pockets when they can. They complain that the tie rule is sexist and unfair. They take the trans stuff very seriously and don't mess with it, ime.
But returning to the main point, some people may have misunderstood performative act as meaning gender is like a stage performance (Live Action Role Play, or Larping, is another word i have heard.) But in practice gender as a performative act sits alongside ideas of transness.
Butler appears to fuse sex and gender but maybe i have misread that too. Butler seems like the kind of person who focuses so tightly on the details that the big picture fades away. And does not accept responsibility for impact of easily misunderstood words.

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