Rob Bryson & Ruth Jones

[CaveMum]

Just listened to the latest episode of Rob Brydon’s podcast where he interviews his long-term friend Ruth Jones.

I thought this exchange at the start was interesting - they know.

Ruth: “It's a lovely intro. Very, very nice. It always makes me interested when people describe me as an actor, because I think of myself as an actress.

Rob: I am being very politically correct.

Ruth: You are, but I always correct people's political correctness when it comes to describing me as an actress.

Rob: I'd rather say actress. I would naturally say actress.

Ruth: Thank you. And it's funny because sometimes I've been introduced or I've read an introduction to something I've been doing and they've called me an actor. I said, oh no, I'm an actress.

And they go, well, no, it's our policy to call you an actor. I go, I know, but I identify as an actress.

Rob: Once you decide to identify, won't be tied anybody who gets, I identify as five foot 10.

Why is that funny? That's what I'm identifying as. How tall am I, Ruth?

Ruth: Oh, maybe you are five foot 10. Are you?

Rob: No, I'm five foot seven. Maybe five foot six and a half now. But I'm identifying as five foot 10.

So I'll ask you again, how tall am I?

Ruth: You're five foot 10.

Rob: Thank you. We're too old for all this, aren't we?

Ruth: Oh, I don't understand it. Anyway, you can't even talk about not understanding anything, can you? You just have to go, I'm old.

I can't hear very well now. So just leave me out of the conversation. Thank you.”

From Brydon &: Ruth Jones, 13 Jun 2024
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/brydon/id1687943454?i=1000658813656
This material may be protected by copyright.

It’s interesting, isn’t it? A patron can mean either a male or a female benefactor. A female benefactor is never a matron.

The words are tied up with old traditional sex-based assumptions. Matrons gave by domestic servitude; patrons gave with finance and influence.

It’s fascinating that one still jars and the other doesn’t.

Very good point - I hadn't even thought of that!

What?? Oh ffs. We’re still in the 1970s aren’t we.

The RAF has dropped 'airman' and now uses aviator to refer to the lower ranks, completely missing the fact the it is also a sexed term with aviatrix as the female equivalent.

Can anyone think of a case where a traditionally female role has a special word for a man doing the job?
We don't have nurse and nursor or carer and carest.

Male prostitute!

Gigolo

Gigolette sounds less judgemental than prostitute. But then so does courtesan.

I haven't watched Wimbledon for years now, but do they still officially call the female players 'MISS Smith' (regardless of marital status) whereas the male players are just 'Smith'? Imagine, eh: women being capable of playing tennis?!?!

Something else that always grates on me is the use of the word 'woman' (or 'lady') as an adjective, when it simply is not. If you have to specify, why a woman teacher or lady doctor and not a female teacher/doctor, which would follow standard English grammar?

I've never heard 'man' used as an adjective - even in traditionally female-dominated professions, it was always 'male nurse' and never, ever 'man nurse'.

Incidentally I think the sisters/nurses thing was from origins in religious orders.

I had an uncle who was a nurse in days when it was assumed (correctly in his case) that men who wanted to do 'womens' work' must be homosexual (very much against the law back then). He was hounded out poor chap.

Slightly off-topic, but I always remember, back in school, one of the boys being shocked once to hear a teacher describe somebody who was very underprivileged as 'destitute' - as he always assumed that 'a destitute' was a male prostitute!

It puts that old 2 in a Room song straight into my head:

I wanna hear you, gigolette
Just a little bit

No, they don't. But they are still ladies and gentlemen.

I'm glad to see the back of the days when Chris Evert Lloyd (as she was known then) was called Mrs J M Lloyd at Wimbledon.

"So I'll ask you again, how tall am I?"

I can hear the tone. 😆He totally gets it.

I have always absolutely hated being referred to as a lady doctor. I'm a doctor with the same qualifications and skills as everyone else in my role regardless of sex. There is no need to comment upon sex at all, but if someone really feels the need then female or woman is preferable. But "lady" really grates. It also shouldn't be necessary to comment when a man is in what is still considered a traditionally female role, but when that happens they at least generally get the straightforward "male". I have never heard anyone referred to as a "gentleman nurse".
I'm not really sure why it annoys me so much. I suppose when used by elderly patients they are probably trying to be polite - I don't hear it as much these days as I did from patients who were in their 70s and 80s when I was newly qualified - but I have heard it used in a patronising way, particularly by senior male staff, so many times over my career that it gets right under my skin.

Ah, that's good - it always seemed so anachronistic and patronising.

Is there an issue with them calling them ladies and gentlemen, though? It's just an equally-polite form of address for both; and they obviously have separate tournaments for reasons of basic biology.

The only time I can think of when somebody has 'gentleman' used before his 'occupation' is (presumably ironically) in the phrase 'gentleman thief'!

I think I've heard Gentleman Farmer on reflection. But in that context it's being used a class differentiator to separate the genteel folk from the kind of farmers who actually get their hands dirty and nothing to do with sex. I can't think of any situation when it's used in the same context as lady doctor.

As long as the terminology is equally out of date I'm not fussed!

Ladies and gentlemen are a class above men and women. You wouldn't have a working lady. Neither would you have a lady nurse. You wouldn't have a gentleman bricklayer... I'm enjoying all of this linguistic trickery.

I started nurse training in 1988 and male nurses were referred to as "male nurses", almost always disparagingly. There were a lot of stereotypes about male nurses and how lazy they were and how they shot up to the top of the tree (promoted by virtue of being male) so they could boss around all their old colleagues, who were almost all female.

As for gentlemen… gentleman farmer yes, gentleman thief, gentleman of leisure, gentleman caller... not that I particularly care about gentlemen of any kind. Or ladies either. If we have to categorise people I'd rather we were called men and women (hides tin opener after opening very large can of worms).

I know a gentleman farmer through work. Lovely bloke, mad as a box of frogs! Public school educated (no idea which one), seems to spend his time writing articles/books on random countryside-type topics. Dresses like he hasn’t got 2 pennies to rub together - threadbear jumpers, faded (obligatory) cords - but no doubt absolutely minted.

One of those people that’s great to have at a dinner party, holding court with witty and entertaining anecdotes.

Lady Gardener. <snort>

I agree with the point, but it depends whether you are talking about a person or a job/position.
Headteacher for the recruitment advert, headmistress/headmaster for the person who gets the job. Similarly chairperson for the ad, and chairwoman/chairman for the person. But if the sex matters, it's different. Actress/actor for both person and job/position. That's how I see it.

I really dislike that. The (service person? Food/ experience facilitator? Plate captain?) is formally defining their role, which to me suggests that they see "customer" as an organisational role, too, with all its formalities and requirements. I wish they would just stick to "Hallo, here's the menu. Can I get your drinks? Are you ready to order?" and leave it at that. More informal and less passive aggressively slavish!