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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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6
Hoardasurass · 12/06/2024 23:44

SabrinaThwaite · 12/06/2024 23:34

@Hoardasurass Maybe the adults are taking over again? I do hope so.

Unfortunately I doubt that as the new sports editor is well very pro trans inclusion in women's sports. There's a current thread about him

DontThinkJustDo · 12/06/2024 23:49

women who have never gone through any part of male puberty

Shakes head that this ridiculous statement needs to be made

SabrinaThwaite · 12/06/2024 23:52

Yep, I’ve read it. I note his Twitter is still locked.

murasaki · 13/06/2024 00:01

Given it's swimming, I'd be interested in Sharron Davies's opinion.

OP posts:
CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 13/06/2024 01:24

Now the graun and the BBC need to use that picture of thomas on the podium absolutely dwarfing the second and third place winners, ha! I assume Ingle doesn't get to choose photos.

BlackeyedSusan · 13/06/2024 02:05

BBC world service used female pronouns in the reporting which is confusing to many listeners...

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 13/06/2024 06:15

There's not a single she/her in this morning's BBC report, which is unusual. Has had A legal case dismissed. Lots of use of Thomas.

Heartyqueens · 13/06/2024 06:19

As someone with a dd in competitive swimming hoo fucking rayyyyy

Glittertwins · 13/06/2024 06:33

DOBARDAN · 12/06/2024 18:02

Pleasing news initially, but something is niggling me, maybe someone can clarirfy. I'm quoting the following sentence, which I've just read from the link provided by OP:-

'However, in a 24-page decision, the court concluded that Thomas was “simply not entitled to engage with eligibility to compete in WA competitions” as someone who was no longer a member of US swimming'.

Am I reading correctly, that as Lia isn't a member of US swimming, that is the reason why he lost his legal battle? Because he wasn't entitled to make a challenge, as a non member?

I wondered this too, I hope the case wasn't won purely because he was no longer a member of USA Swimming.

ChateauMargaux · 13/06/2024 07:10

PriOn1 · 12/06/2024 22:43

What are the Olympic rules now? Thomas was such a perfect case that he’d have led the world to that mountaintop and anyone who still was not aware of the travesty that’s occurring under the false banner of “inclusivity” would have been blasted wide open.

We need a male to dominate in a popular sport. Pretty sure the scandal would create huge waves.

@PriOn1 .. There is no 'Olympic Rule'..
The Olympic rules prioritise inclusion over fairness and put the onus on the individual sports to set the rules.. https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-releases-framework-on-fairness-inclusion-and-non-discrimination-on-the-basis-of-gender-identity-and-sex-variationsThis policy was criticised here.. by the International Federation of Sports Medicine. https://bmjopensem.bmj.com/content/8/1/e001273Athletics, Swimming and cycling are among the sports who have set the eligibility criteria for the female category as not having gone through male puberty after the age of 12.

The World Aquatics rules are clearly set out here..
https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2023/03/27/dbc3381c-91e9-4ea4-a743-84c8b06debef/Policy-on-Eligibility-for-the-Men-s-and-Women-s-Competiition-Categrories-Version-on-2023.03.24.pdf

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2023/03/27/dbc3381c-91e9-4ea4-a743-84c8b06debef/Policy-on-Eligibility-for-the-Men-s-and-Women-s-Competiition-Categrories-Version-on-2023.03.24.pdf

nutmeg7 · 13/06/2024 07:58

SabrinaThwaite · 12/06/2024 22:54

Interesting that BBC Sport has carefully not used any pronouns for Thomas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/articles/c4nn20w0x0zo

Ah, it was “she” all over the Today programme (it was early, and I was mainly asleep, but I am sure it was”she” )

SabrinaThwaite · 13/06/2024 08:16

Glittertwins · 13/06/2024 06:33

I wondered this too, I hope the case wasn't won purely because he was no longer a member of USA Swimming.

WA didn’t have to ‘win’ the case because Thomas didn’t have the right to bring it in the first place, not being classified as an elite athlete under US Swimming rules.

I don’t know if Thomas was ever even a member of US Swimming - it was reported in Feb 2022 that he wasn’t.

It’s important to note that USA Swimming clearly states the policy is not applicable to non-USA Swimming athlete members. According to CEO Tim Hinchey, Thomas is not a member of USA Swimming.

https://swimswam.com/usa-swimming-publishes-athlete-transgender-policy/

USA Swimming Publishes Athlete Transgender Policy

The new policy requires transgender athletes to prove their prior development as a male does not give them an advantage over cisgender female competitors.

https://swimswam.com/usa-swimming-publishes-athlete-transgender-policy/

Glittertwins · 13/06/2024 08:34

I also read elsewhere that the university competitions have different rules which is why he could swim their competitions even though he wasn't registered with the national body.. It's different here isn't it? Any BUCS entry would still require registration to a home nation?

FrancescaContini · 13/06/2024 08:34

SquirrelSoShiny · 12/06/2024 21:57

Was I deleted for describing Lia the cheat as a cheat? And for saying the Open class was there for mediocre male swimmers to compete in? Something like that no doubt. I mean we can't be telling the truth about things, can we?

You’re spot on.

Poor William, not being allowed to cheat.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 13/06/2024 08:44

It's so petty but it amuses me that the pronoun issue can be swerved by using just last names

Peskysquirrel · 13/06/2024 08:49

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 13/06/2024 08:44

It's so petty but it amuses me that the pronoun issue can be swerved by using just last names

Yep, and it's even more effective in this case because his surname is a male name.

SabrinaThwaite · 13/06/2024 08:54

Glittertwins · 13/06/2024 08:34

I also read elsewhere that the university competitions have different rules which is why he could swim their competitions even though he wasn't registered with the national body.. It's different here isn't it? Any BUCS entry would still require registration to a home nation?

AFAIK the NCAA has its own rule book so competitions aren’t held under WA rules - which is why Thomas could compete in the women’s events.

For BUCS I’m pretty sure you have to be a member of a British Swimming club or take out a British Swimming student membership to be able to enter.

SabrinaThwaite · 13/06/2024 09:00

Having searched the US Swimming website, there is a Lia Kathryn Thomas listed as a member on the west coast, but unattached, and with all listed times prior to March 2019, and all in men’s events.

fiftypercentoff · 13/06/2024 09:09

women who have never gone through any part of male puberty

Does this wording sow the seed that boys should trasnition pre puberty, and if they do then they can compete in womens sports?

I perefer 'biological women' but I'm sure thats not allowed 🤔

PriOn1 · 13/06/2024 09:21

fiftypercentoff · 13/06/2024 09:09

women who have never gone through any part of male puberty

Does this wording sow the seed that boys should trasnition pre puberty, and if they do then they can compete in womens sports?

I perefer 'biological women' but I'm sure thats not allowed 🤔

That is a concern, but it seems likely that physically transitioning as a child might have a detrimental effect on sporting performance, given the side effects of puberty blockers.

Doesn’t mean there aren’t countries that prioritize medals over competitors health who aren’t eyeing it up and doing the sums…

ChateauMargaux · 13/06/2024 09:39

The World Aquatics guidelines relateod to World Ramkings and World Records. Each organisation is permitted to set their own rules but have to abide by World Aquatics rules for qualifiying events.

It becomes a bit ridiculous when organisations say for National League events these are the rules but local events / non competitive / below age X .. etc others rules may apply... even Seb Coe. Head of International Athletics said he will protect the female athletics category at elite level but 'would die in a ditch' to defend the right of a trans person to play grassroots sports in the category in which they identify.

Even the Sports Councils of England, Scotland and Wales have hidden the declarations that female category is based on biology deep within a website called 'moving towards inclusion' and then within the 'transgender policy'.

It results in apparently fair competition at a certain level.. lots of media coverage questioning the rules ... lots of loopholes, ambiguity and confusion.

The biggest outcome is that women and girls are left feeling that they matter less than men, they do not get their fair share of access, support and encouragement. They feel angry, hurt and confused.

10 years ago, sporting organisations were starting to really focus on the factors that encouraged and supported women.. these efforts have been significantly impacted by the focus on the language used in policies, the focus on trans inclusion, but mostly hampered by fear of mentioning the word girl or women for fear of being called transphobic, being questioned, being derailed by theoretical discussions while girls and women are ignored.

All policies should all state first:
Eligibility for Participation by Sex category: Principle of fundamental right to fairness and equality of the sexes.

Women: Biological Females XX Chromosomes No exceptions
Other: All other
No ambiguity, no discussion.

Secondary to this should be an inclusion policy: sport is for all, everyone should be made welcome, measures to include whatever your identity.. etc etc

WinterInTheSpring · 13/06/2024 13:26

murasaki · 13/06/2024 00:01

Given it's swimming, I'd be interested in Sharron Davies's opinion.

She’s posted and retweeted about it on X.

Peskysquirrel · 14/06/2024 12:23

The biggest outcome is that women and girls are left feeling that they matter less than men, they do not get their fair share of access, support and encouragement. They feel angry, hurt and confused.

10 years ago, sporting organisations were starting to really focus on the factors that encouraged and supported women.. these efforts have been significantly impacted by the focus on the language used in policies, the focus on trans inclusion, but mostly hampered by fear of mentioning the word girl or women for fear of being called transphobic, being questioned, being derailed by theoretical discussions while girls and women are ignored.

⬆This, a million times.