"Lots of women disagree with you!" - How to respond to this?

[TERFCat]

Recently, the "many women disagree with TERFs" (or something to that effect) argument has been given as a response to me.

How would you respond to this point?

Hypothetically, if there was a poll and 99% of women agreed yo allow men in women's safe spaces, what would you say?

I'm gender critical through and through BTW! I just can't think of a good response to the above points!

I’d want to know how many of these “women” are biologically male.
You can’t say that TWAW and then not include TW in any conversation about women. How many of those women surveyed have penises?

If you can't be arsed arguing there's always, 'I don't care'.

Hypothetically, if there was a poll and 99% of women agreed yo allow men in women's safe spaces, what would you say?

Ain't going to happen. Ask her how the poll(s) she's referring to were worded. We know one quarter to one third of the population think "transgender women" refers to biological women identifying as trans. The vast majority of the rest associate them with fully post-op transsexuals (probably played by a woman on TV.) As soon as polls openly ask whether unoperated biological men should be let into women's open plan showers or changing rooms the number of those in favour shrinks to the low single digits.

"I don't form my opinions based on how many people think a thing, I form them based on the quality of evidence and argument. "

If 99% of women want to have sex with Rick Astley, the remaining 1% can still say no.

Consent isn't transferrable.

600 billion flies eat shit. Doesn't mean that I should.

I would say well if that was the case, then obviously I’d want to discuss this with them and respect their views. However it isn’t the case.

It’s like anything. You’re showing them you’re not crazy and not doing it for the sake of it.

Lots of people agree with you though.

The idea that lots of people disagree with you isn't really an argument. It's a propaganda technique to say you are either with women or against women. It's trying to force team you. It's an appeal to get you on the 'right team'

The technique that's most applicable here is a bandwagon appeal:

Bandwagon
Bandwagon and "inevitable-victory" appeals attempt to persuade the target audience to join in and take the course of action that "everyone else is taking."

You can read more about other various propaganda techniques here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques

The point is this is done without being backed up with an substantive case as to WHY your position is wrong. It's not making a case on the merits of the actual subject.

This is because there isn't one. You are just supposed to follow the crowd and this is a coercive method to make you doubt yourself. It's designed to intimate and silence you.

Lots of people disagree with each other on lots of things. Even if you find yourself in a minority it does mean the majority are correct.

I have not talked to a single woman who has had a child who agrees men can be women

Of course lots of women disagree, because being a woman hasn’t got a damned thing to do with thinking or feeling a specific way.

But women must all support each other. Including transwomen. They can't have independent thoughts of their own. They should have the opinions they are taught and told to have.

It's like fucking stepford wives bullshit isn't it?

Lots of women fancy Boris Johnson and lots of women have shagged him.

Does this mean all women want to shag him?

Is it aspirational to be shagged by Boris Johnson.

That's the level we are at.

I don't understand the question. And I actually don't understand the question. Are you asking if men should be allowed in women's toilets or changing rooms? If so the answer is no.

Edit: What the hell is terf, is it badly spelt turf (grass)

'They can fuck off to the men's then'.

'My rights, safety and privacy is not theirs to give away'.

'Bloody transmaidens'.

I wouldn't bother responding. People aren't open to having their minds changed, so it's a pointless conversation.

I was going to suggest:

Well, more disagree with you,

But there are many, far better replies preceding this post...

Hypothetically, if there was a poll and 99% of women agreed yo allow men in women's safe spaces, what would you say?

I'd say: tell me why women's same sex spaces and services existed in the first place. And then show me how - in REAL terms, not theoretical - the world has changed since feminists won rights to these spaces and services, in a way that demonstrates that the factors that drove the demand for same sex spaces and services no longer exists, proves that they are no longer needed, and thoroughly demonstrates that equally acceptable accommodations have been made for all women who relied on these spaces.

And if, as I suspect, I didn't get a satisfactory answer to all of the above, I'd continue advocating for and defending (and in some cases reestablishing) same sex spaces, until such time comes - and oh my God, I hope it does come!!!! - that they are genuinely no longer needed.

Hypothetically, if there was a poll and 99% of women agreed yo allow men in women's safe spaces, what would you say?

Hypothetically do you think that if enough flatearthers ate cheese the moon would rise somewhere else?

Seriously. Once again, why are we are this level of non argument?

It's a technique to once again bully women into saying something they don't believe and coercively remove their sense of autonomy.

The one i struggle with is the "if we were all genetically tested not all "born women" would come up as women" like genetic anomalies will be do common it would completely turn the argument on its head

The argument being single toilets with a floor to ceiling door a self contained bin and sink are safer than just making toilets unisex in general I honestly don't care that "in university someone tried to attack them and their trans friend saved them that's why they feel safe" argument because it does nothing to dissuade me from my idea but this new genetic testing one? How do you argue against that?

This whole, how do you even know you’rea woman if you haven’t been chromosomal tested?

If you’ve had a period, you’re a woman.
If you’ve ejaculated, you’rea man.
If you’ve reached adulthood without doing either of these things, you will have sought medical advice and will have found what the issue is.

I’d be very surprised if there is even a single person in this country who doesn’t fall into one of these three categories, therefore every single person knows exactly which sex they are.

The genetics bs is a red herring promoted by people who want to believe sex is a spectrum.

How do they think most people who want to have children manage to successfully breed if it's so difficult to determine which type of human is which? Is it just luck?

How do you deal with anyone that has a different opinion to you?

Think logically. No one ever changes their mind by being told they're wrong. Ever!

Ask them questions to allow them to question their beliefs or just say well this is what I think and state them without becoming too militant as that will back them into a corner and make them defensive instead of having a discussion

Also its fine for them to have different beliefs to you. You are not right and they're wrong or visa versa. Listen to them rather than shut them down and offer an alternative view point. Have a good discussion

There are YouGov polls linked in the break it down thread (sorry I can’t link it right now) that show that once it is mentioned that a male still has a penis the majority of women say they don’t believe they should be included. .over 95% of male trans people have a penis still ,

And another you gov poll that was clear that the majority reject male trans people in female sport.

So while ‘lots’ might disagree with you, the majority in the UK agree.

The thing is that as people mention, consent isn’t transferable.

I would also point out that women have complex toilet uses such as cleaning shirts, skirts etc and drying them , having to have babies in prams and you can’t shut the door so it is wide open dealing with messy periods, and women and girls getting changed and often that has to be in the basin area because the toilet floors are wet. Women do t want to ‘just peel’ we have complex lives.

But sport is always a good one. There is a reason extreme TRAs always deflect conversations away from sport. Because if they are not considered ‘women’ for every purpose, they are not really considered women.

But sport is always a good one. There is a reason extreme TRAs always deflect conversations away from sport. Because if they are not considered ‘women’ for every purpose, they are not really considered women.

I've asked a number of 'allies' visiting this board if they are genuinely in favour of mixed sex boxing and have yet to have an answer. It almost as if they know how bloody stupid it would be to say out loud that they approve of men hitting women.

There's definitely stepford wife bullshit to it, but I think there's something more sinister in there, too.
It's a kind of borg-consent idea, and I think young women in particular are suckered in by it. At least, I was, as a young woman.
The sense I had that I didn't have a choice about which sexual activity in particular I participated in: if I agreed to sex I was agreeing to the median/mean sort of definition of what sex involves for my culture.
It looks horrifying to me when I hear of young women now feeling like they don't have a choice about whether or not sex involves choking and slapping, but actually the dynamic was the same for me. It was just a different set of sexual activities that made up an ordinary sexual encounter.
@TERFCat it doesn't matter if 99% of women consent to something. Your consent - for example, to get undressed infront of a man - is yours and yours alone to give or withhold, depending whether or not you want that, and with no thought for what any other woman on the planet wants in that same situation.