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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Heath Ponds. The next installment

22 replies

Davros · 04/06/2024 10:29

Latest from our local paper:
https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/24363258.kenwood-ladies-pond-association-bans-woman-trans-row---report/?ref=eb&nid=2390&block=articleblockk_a&u=a248f39b87a0e63551993ca1336fdb9a&date=040624

OP posts:
MrsTomRipley · 04/06/2024 11:01

So as long as women have a penis they'll be fine
where the fuck did we go so wrong

CocoapuffPuff · 04/06/2024 11:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Chersfrozenface · 04/06/2024 11:27

What possible reason does a male (tw are male, its the baseline definition, don't have a paddy, it's reality, babes) have for wanting in the female pond when a safe and lovely alternative exists?

Some will have creepy, nefarious reasons.

Some want validation. To have everyone say, and preferably actually believe, that they are women. Not transwomen, but actual female women.

CocoapuffPuff · 04/06/2024 11:32

I don't feel valusation is a good reason. I feel its abusive.

Validation to me means using someone else, many times against their will, to prop up a feeling or delusion inside one's own head.

Validation dehumanises those around oneself. It turns them from people in their own right, to mere bit actors in one's personal piece of theatre.

I don't consent to being used like that.

SinnerBoy · 04/06/2024 11:37

Chersfrozenface · Today 11:27

Some will have creepy, nefarious reasons. Some want validation.

To be honest, from my (male) perspective, wanting validation is creepy and nefarious.

Chersfrozenface · 04/06/2024 11:46

SinnerBoy · 04/06/2024 11:37

Chersfrozenface · Today 11:27

Some will have creepy, nefarious reasons. Some want validation.

To be honest, from my (male) perspective, wanting validation is creepy and nefarious.

I do believe that in some cases it springs not from creepy desires (such as AGP) or getting a thrill from dominating women, but from full-blown delusion.

Username947531 · 04/06/2024 11:52

The men want validation. I swim in the ponds and there have been recent incidences of women telling the staff/lifeguards there is a man wandering around with his penis out, only to be told oh they are transwomen so allowed. I now change in a cubicle where I can but there are only a few. The gaslighting is horrendous. The KPLA are totally captured.

Chersfrozenface · 04/06/2024 12:53

Username947531 · 04/06/2024 11:52

The men want validation. I swim in the ponds and there have been recent incidences of women telling the staff/lifeguards there is a man wandering around with his penis out, only to be told oh they are transwomen so allowed. I now change in a cubicle where I can but there are only a few. The gaslighting is horrendous. The KPLA are totally captured.

Wandering around with his penis out definitely comes under pervy, threatening and abusive.

CocoapuffPuff · 04/06/2024 13:03

It comes under "criminal behaviour"

AlisonDonut · 04/06/2024 13:06

What is an 'AI-Assisted' reporter?

WTF99 · 04/06/2024 13:13

Username947531 · 04/06/2024 11:52

The men want validation. I swim in the ponds and there have been recent incidences of women telling the staff/lifeguards there is a man wandering around with his penis out, only to be told oh they are transwomen so allowed. I now change in a cubicle where I can but there are only a few. The gaslighting is horrendous. The KPLA are totally captured.

I went here recently for the first time with my daughter and it was such a brilliant experience for us both. It felt very nurturing and safe.
I'd have been appalled to have had to share the space with a man and his penis

PriOn1 · 04/06/2024 13:19

So did/do women sometimes use the pond naked? Is the man with his penis out following a convention that’s normal for women using the pond?

I must say, I love skinny dipping when I get the chance. If there was a man present, I wouldn’t do it though, even if his presence wouldn’t actually drive me away.

Username947531 · 04/06/2024 13:27

PriOn1 · 04/06/2024 13:19

So did/do women sometimes use the pond naked? Is the man with his penis out following a convention that’s normal for women using the pond?

I must say, I love skinny dipping when I get the chance. If there was a man present, I wouldn’t do it though, even if his presence wouldn’t actually drive me away.

No. They are not allowed to swim naked but they can go topless in the meadows. Women also change in one of the meadows so might be naked there.

Peskysquirrel · 04/06/2024 13:29

Women are forced into self-policing behaviour because of the presence, or potential presence, of a male-bodied person.

This behaviour ranges from not feeling comfortable taking one's top off right through to not being able to attend the pool at all any more for religious or cultural reasons.

This space was designed for us and intended for us. How fucking dare they.

Ofcourseshecan · 04/06/2024 13:34

CocoapuffPuff · 04/06/2024 11:32

I don't feel valusation is a good reason. I feel its abusive.

Validation to me means using someone else, many times against their will, to prop up a feeling or delusion inside one's own head.

Validation dehumanises those around oneself. It turns them from people in their own right, to mere bit actors in one's personal piece of theatre.

I don't consent to being used like that.

I don't consent to being used like that.

But that’s all the more fun for someone who enjoys pushing women around and breaking their boundaries.

WTF99 · 04/06/2024 13:36

PriOn1 · 04/06/2024 13:19

So did/do women sometimes use the pond naked? Is the man with his penis out following a convention that’s normal for women using the pond?

I must say, I love skinny dipping when I get the chance. If there was a man present, I wouldn’t do it though, even if his presence wouldn’t actually drive me away.

When I was there, nobody was swimming naked, but there was quite a lot of nakedness generally as the private changing rooms are limited.
So being naked isn't unusual, but being naked with a penis is

loveyouradvice · 04/06/2024 16:53

When I swam there 30 years ago, we all swam naked - rare for people to wear a swimsuit....Such a great nurturing atmosphere

TWETMIRF · 04/06/2024 16:58

Username947531 · 04/06/2024 11:52

The men want validation. I swim in the ponds and there have been recent incidences of women telling the staff/lifeguards there is a man wandering around with his penis out, only to be told oh they are transwomen so allowed. I now change in a cubicle where I can but there are only a few. The gaslighting is horrendous. The KPLA are totally captured.

Nothing more womanly than getting your cock out in front of the vagina people. All women together, doing womanly things, nothing to worry about...

Longtimelurkerfinallyposts · 04/06/2024 23:19

loveyouradvice · 04/06/2024 16:53

When I swam there 30 years ago, we all swam naked - rare for people to wear a swimsuit....Such a great nurturing atmosphere

Really?

There have always been rules about nudity at the pond. 25-30 years ago the lifeguards were notorious for telling women off for being too naked - even being topless in the meadow was a problem - this at a time when some London dykes were trying to establish a culture of women's cruising, and hung out regularly at the pond.

The only time I skinny dipped in the ladies' pond was at night time (after the lifeguards had gone home), in about 1993. I really doubt you or anyone else ever got to do it during its official opening hours.

teancoffee · 05/06/2024 09:10

From The Spectator

'Not another step!’ The large women in an old T shirt stretched across her bulging shoulders glared at my father. We were standing under a canopy of trees on Hampstead Heath in north London. Sunshine dappled through the leaves onto my face. I was 12 years old and clutched a wet and muddy costume. Through the greenery was a glimpse of lake and naked limbs.

My childhood oasis of tranquillity is under threat. My father had come to pick me up from swimming in the Kenwood Ladies’ Pond. He had started up the path only to be confronted by the lifeguard. ‘Women only.’ she growled and pointed to the board declaring ‘Men cannot go beyond this point,’ Then she took in our long-haired dachshund. ‘And he’s male too,’ she said with disgust.

To my astonishment my fearless father who had charmed even Russia’s secret police and would go on to do the same to former Red Guards in Communist China, hung back, dragging our dog with him. He accepted without a murmur the orders of the still angry guard determined to preserve this female only space.
That lifeguard’s determination has long gone. Kenwood Ladies’ Pond has become a front line in the culture wars. All my father has to do now is declare himself a woman and barge his way through.

Designated women-only in 1926, the pond was a refuge for women of all ages and backgrounds and played a unique role in my childhood. It is breathtakingly beautiful and peaceful. The pond itself is surrounded by trees trailing their branches into the deep water and meadows where women often sunbath naked.

The changing room has barely altered. It still is rough and ready and communal. Women walk around unselfconsciously and wash themselves in open showers. It was one of the first places my parents let me go on my own or with school friends because they knew it was safe.

In hot weather I perform the same ritual I did as a child. I swim in a slow circuit around the pond in the shade of the overhanging trees. My feet tangle in the roots of the water lilies as my chin pushes through the yellow flowers. On my last visit, I find myself at eye level with two, teenage ducklings as they received a midge catching lesson from their mother. Obediently they copied her every action, the surface of the pond dimpling faintly with their movements. Their eyes focused on the rising midges as beaks snapped in unison. From all around come the comforting sound of women’s voices, murmuring to each other as they swam.

But my childhood oasis of tranquillity is under threat.

This week Venice Allan became the first woman to be banned from the group which runs the place – the Kenwood Ladies’ Pond Association (KLPA). Her crime? She criticised their decision to allow in transgender women. The snake that has entered my paradise is a gender intelligence training course funded by the City of London, which administers the pond. All 11 of her fellow committee members, says Venice Allan, have been on it. ‘The result is they declare that trans women are women.’ To suggest otherwise, they warn, is a breach of the 2010 Equality Act.

Gender ideology has infiltrated even here.

‘They are of course entitled to that view,’ says Venice Allan who clearly has not had the required gender training, ‘but I felt I had to speak out.’ Which she did in March at the pond’s annual general meeting. She jumped up on a chair, an unmissable figure in a brightly flowered dress, and demanded to know why the KLPA had rejected a motion to allow only those ‘born female in sex’ to use the ladies’ pond. For good measure she also accused them of making ‘male violence’ possible.

She is not alone in being upset. There are three ponds on the Heath, mixed, women and men only. Men can now swim in all three while women have lost the one place they could call their own. In protest, about 20 women ‘identified’ as men for the afternoon and gate crashed the men’s pool nearby – where my father used to swim regularly – dressed in face beards and even a lime green mankini, to highlight the absurdity of gender self-identification. They were ejected by staff. No such luck for the man in tiny trunks displaying his genitalia who entered the Ladies’ pond, as one regular lady swimmer complained.

‘I have been there when someone with hormone induced moobs is at the edge of the pond letting it all hang out. It’s hard to feel that isn’t a statement.’ Allan told the Mail on Sunday.

‘Banning me sends a message – just a year before we celebrate 100 years of this iconic women’s space – that women who object to men using the pool are not welcome.’

So I am glad I experienced Kenwood Ladies’ Pond when it was still exactly that. And the only thing to surprise me was the ducklings learning how to snap up a midge.

Harriet Sergeant is a journalist and the author of Among the Hoods: My Years With a Teenage Gang.

CocoapuffPuff · 05/06/2024 10:11

I'm hundreds of miles away from London and I'm deeply sad that something so precious and necessary has been stolen from women. I'm furious that other women have aided and abetted this theft of privacy, dignity and peace. I'm aghast that the feelings of a few males are STILL, in 2024, considered far more worthy of respect and genuflection than the feelings of most women and girls.

I honestly understand those who turn to violence when dealing with shit like this. We do it daily. There are few spaces where women are free to just be ourselves, to relax, to bond.

Which is, of course, exactly why they're targeted so hard by the cocks.

Datun · 05/06/2024 10:33

If they truly believe they are operating in line with the equality act, Kemi Badenoch's statement can't get disseminated quickly enough.

I refuse to believe that all those ordinary women truly welcome naked male boundary violators.

Well done Venice for standing up and sticking up for women. And still bloody articulate even when she's absolutely fucking furious.

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