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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starting a conversation in schools this Pride month

20 replies

BonfireLady · 01/06/2024 12:23

Some parents have already started conversations within their children's schools about gender identity belief, some want to but don't know where to start.

I've been sharing updates about my own conversations on MN, although not for a while. The headline still remains that it's a slow burn but going in the right direction. I'm yet to work out exactly where the main resistance is (although I've found the main pocket of "activism" within the teaching staff) but I'm engaged with the SLT, who in turn are engaged with the governors/trustees and their legal team. I'll be meeting the school again shortly to understand where everything is up to in relation to our conversations so far.

One thing I asked for last year (during the time it was flying) was that they consider replacing the Progress Pride flag with the standard Pride one. This didn't happen and I'm asking for it again. Given where the conversation is now, I'm also asking for removal of all pronoun posters and other promotions of gender identity belief - last year I took several books from the prominent display in reception in to a meeting with them and showed examples of gender identity belief being promoted as truth.

As frustrating as it is that the conversation is slow going, I'm keen to keep collaborating with them, whilst also holding a mirror up to show them the legal risks that they are facing.

If anyone needs a conversation starter this Pride month, this is a great one, using schools' legal obligation around flying the Progress flag. Many won't realise that they aren't allowed to do so:

https://x.com/SEENinSchools/status/1796827417018777878?t=IjS4y8bPal8qeiFA71PxVw&s=19

It opens the door for so many other follow-up questions, including:

  1. How does the school manage sex versus gender identity e.g. changing rooms? Are they aware of the existing legal obligations around sex segregation, irrespective of the draft status of the Gender Questioning Children guidance?
  2. Even though the KCSIE states that "gender identity is not a safeguarding issue" (it does so by conflating it with sexual orientation), schools are obligated through existing statutory guidance not to promote beliefs, particularly where children are vulnerable. Are they aware of the Cass Report and the vulnerability of the children highlighted within it? Particularly autistic and Looked After children.
  3. Does their PHSE/RSE material promote gender identity belief, (irrespective of the draft status of the RSHE guidance)?
  4. Are they aware of the 3 month ban on puberty blockers, including private clinics and sourcing from abroad? Have they considered what this means for safeguarding if parents are doing this, given these are now controlled substances?
  5. Do parents of trans-identified (or non-binary) children know about the identity/pronouns that their child uses at school?
  6. Does the school have an approach for managing how staff promote gender identity belief?
  7. Does the school have an LGBT club? How do they manage the conflation of LGB (fact) and T (belief, predicated on the idea that "we all have a gender identity")?

Many schools, including the one that my daughters go to, have several trans-identified students. I don't envy the difficult position they've found themselves in. But equally, I don't accept apathy on their part. The stakes are too great. This is a medical scandal affecting thousands of children and there is no pride whatsoever in promoting it.

If a school wants to promote Pride month, its original purpose of LGB inclusion is the only viable way to do it.

x.com

https://x.com/SEENinSchools/status/1796827417018777878?s=19&t=IjS4y8bPal8qeiFA71PxVw

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BonfireLady · 01/06/2024 12:40

Point 5 should have said "non-binary identified", not "non-binary" but I'm too late for the edit button.

As a non-believer myself, I don't recognise the concept of a non-binary child.

Even though Dr Cass clearly does believe in gender identity (there's a whole section of the report about it.. but luckily section 8.23 leaves space to challenge it), she recognises the dangers of social transition. Referring to a child as trans or non-binary clearly does exactly this, because it obviously "transitions them" from the status quo (their actual sex) and overshadows any further exploration.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/06/2024 13:30

Re Keeping Children Safe in Education - it's been updated

The ideological Stonewall written section has been replaced with a nuanced child centred section that will likely be revised in the light of Cass. The section on LGBT children is dropped, the new section advises caution, highlights the vulnerability of this group of children and the importance of working with parents:

Here's Transgender Trend's view of it:

https://x.com/transgendertrd/status/1794313243537858910?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

And a discussion on here about it:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5082317-finally-keeping-children-safe-in-education-has-been-updated

And schools should not be promoting the political Pride month - they are required by law to be politically neutral - not promoting queer theory.

x.com

https://x.com/transgendertrd/status/1794313243537858910?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

greenlettuce · 01/06/2024 13:44

I don't think schools should engage with Pride month at all. There is no need to and it avoids this issue.

BonfireLady · 01/06/2024 14:14

MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/06/2024 13:30

Re Keeping Children Safe in Education - it's been updated

The ideological Stonewall written section has been replaced with a nuanced child centred section that will likely be revised in the light of Cass. The section on LGBT children is dropped, the new section advises caution, highlights the vulnerability of this group of children and the importance of working with parents:

Here's Transgender Trend's view of it:

https://x.com/transgendertrd/status/1794313243537858910?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

And a discussion on here about it:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5082317-finally-keeping-children-safe-in-education-has-been-updated

And schools should not be promoting the political Pride month - they are required by law to be politically neutral - not promoting queer theory.

Ah, I thought it was still in a draft/consultation stage. There's a lot to keep up with 😂
Good news!

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BonfireLady · 01/06/2024 14:56

And I do understand the viewpoint that celebrating Pride doesn't belong in schools because it's "political" but as the pride flag ispermitted on public buildings, I'm not sure that the original Pride purpose (LGB inclusion) is considered political in law?

Bring in the Progress flag and it arguably is, because it's about the promotion of changing laws to accommodate gender identity belief as truth. The word "political" doesn't seem to have enough clarity in the context of the schools' guidance.

I don't want to support a "don't say gay" approach, so where schools are already celebrating Pride it seems a stretch to ask them to ditch the whole lot because an age appropriate message about LGB inclusion is a positive thing. But advocating for trans rights (or even greater LGB rights) is political. Unfortunately Pride gets far more focus than any other celebratory/awareness week/month. If the T could be detached from the LGB that might help correct the balance too.

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BonfireLady · 01/06/2024 15:04

BonfireLady · 01/06/2024 14:14

Ah, I thought it was still in a draft/consultation stage. There's a lot to keep up with 😂
Good news!

Just double-checked... unfortunately it isn't yet finalised. The screenshot below is from the government page with the document on it.

Apologies if this is already covered in the thread you linked @MrsOvertonsWindow but do we know if it automatically become final in September unless there is an active intervention to stop that happening? Or does the new government need to do something to make it final?

Starting a conversation in schools this Pride month
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MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/06/2024 15:45

I presume there'd need to be an active governmental intervention to say change it - in other words to insist that children should be transitioned and that schools must ignore all the growing evidence from Cass and elsewhere about co morbidities and the unevidenced nature of the experimental drugs surgery.
Maybe I'm over optimistic but I suspect that some? many? Labour politicians have realised the nature of what they've unthinkingly been advocating for children and that little of this government's last minute actions (banning pbs, KCSIE etc) will be overturned?

spirit20 · 01/06/2024 15:52

Schools should absolutely promote Pride month in the traditional sense, to show their gay and lesbian students that they have a right to be treated equally in society and to show them that there's absolutely nothing wrong with being gay. This is absolutely not political and is the exact same as promoting Black History Month and IWD. It shows that they are accepted in society regardless of what idiotic beliefs some people may be clinging onto. This is particularly relevant given that up until 2003 it was forbidden to mention the word gay in schools.

However, I agree that schools should absolutely not be promoting any form of gender ideology.

Leafstamp · 01/06/2024 19:14

If a school wants to promote Pride month, its original purpose of LGB inclusion is the only viable way to do it.

100% agree.

BonfireLady · 04/06/2024 16:21

Update:

The school isn't able to meet with me until the third week in June (the members of the SLT that I'm meeting with are doing primary school visits for the new intake, so fair enough) but interestingly, there is no flag flying at all.....

In February, the Progress Pride flag flew for the whole month (it was LGBT History Month), despite me asking them to substitute it with the standard Pride one at the start of that month. I know that they are running Pride activities of some kind this month but hopefully it's a good sign
that there is a change in the air, even if it's simply that they don't own a standard Pride flag.

They told me that their focus would be on "tolerance", in response to my earlier request for information on the planned activities. I'll be looking forward to understanding more about what that looks like in the light of everything we've discussed so far, particularly on the promotion of the library books and the wall posters. I'll be using the questions in my OP as a checklist at the meeting on the issues where I don't yet know the progress, with an adjustment to 2 and 5 in relation to the KCSIE guidance: I'll be asking if they are already aligned with the new guidance that is expected to be published on 1st September (Mrs O I'll go for the same optimism.... 🤞)

Although the conversation has been a slow burn, starting with my own daughter's EHCP as the original priority, it does feel like the collaborative approach is now really starting to pay dividends. I appreciate that it's not the right approach for everyone, but a) I've heard far too many stories about parents of children like my daughter being cut off and flagged to social services etc, so I'm not going to risk this and b) I do genuinely believe that there are senior school staff and supporting EHCP-related organisations that are caught up in this, having been given bad/no advice because of the years that education has spent asleep at the wheel and/or captured from the top (DfE) down. Obviously there are clearly also activist people in each of these areas and, largely thanks to what I've learned via MN, I feel confident that I could navigate those conversations now if/when the need arises.

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BonfireLady · 20/06/2024 12:33

Update, following my meeting with members of the school SLT this week. Bit of a long one but hopefully there are some useful thoughts for anyone who is already engaged with a school SLT on this subject, or thinking of doing so.

TL:DR
Progress! Without the Progress flag 🙃

More info:
I'm glad I got my head fully round the KCSIE position ahead of the meeting as this was pivotal to all of it, as suggested above. In order to enact change within the school, they need a solid foundation. Because the 2024 guidance is not in place yet, and is potentially subject to change until it is, they have not yet changed their policies. However, their view was that a) the document won't change around the LGB and "gender questioning" update and b) that it's helpful that it references both the Cass Report and the Gender Questioning Children guidance. They are internally preparing for this as an SLT ready for training staff in September.

This is a significant mindset shift within the SLT. It's not fully there yet but it's well on the way, and it doesn't look like it will slip backwards 🤞

As far as they are aware, they have informed all parents whose children are "gender questioning" (this is a step forward from where they were) and they acknowledge the shortfall between the guidance and the vulnerability of children like my daughter. At my request, the lead responsible for my daughter's EHCP was also in the meeting, so that they can consider how they support other children in her position within the options available to them.

All reference to "gender" has been removed from the RHSE materials. They are managing gender identity as a belief (this was how they explained it to me), and recognise that as such, it doesn't belong in the teaching materials. They were also clear that "gender identity" and the gender reassignment PC are not the same thing. This tallies well with the draft guidance on RHSE materials, even though we don't know its outcome under the next government.

"Gender questioning" children can either use the facilities commensurate with their sex or separate, single occupancy facilities for changing and toilets. Also, they confirmed that no child is told to use anyone's preferred pronouns i.e. this is not upheld as something that children/staff need to do. We talked a little about avoiding pronouns entirely as one method of achieving this. This tallies well with the draft guidance on Gender Questioning Children, even though we don't know it's outcome under the next government (and even though it's non-statutory).

We talked about the challenges of managing a belief in gender identity within the staff. They were keen to forge a path where the belief that we all have a gender identity wasn't "promoted or facilitated, either consciously or subconsciously" (their words), The unions have said that staff using preferred pronouns on emails is a matter of personal choice.... I suggested that one way to manage this in staff training could be to raise awareness of the impact of sharing pronouns. To non-believers, pronouns are associated with someone's sex, so introducing the idea that we should share our pronouns is an indirect promotion of the belief. In theory, it's as innocuous as wishing someone Merry Christmas or Eid Mubarak.. but in practice, it's not.
They are thinking about the messaging to staff across the whole school, from a statutory/legal perspective as well as common sense. Not an easy task when the majority of the guidance is either not final or not statutory. They have quite the challenge on their hands but have already started it e.g. although the library book selection still includes books which promote the belief, they have opened dialogue with the staff. They are conscious that a significant number of their younger staff believe that everyone has a gender identity and see this as fact, not belief. We discussed that it's helpful that Dr Cass and Gillian Keegan clearly also believe in it, yet have found a pathway through that is centred on safeguarding and medical evidence.

They all said that they no longer used the word "gender" themselves and were building this language in to the school e.g. they no longer have additional facilities labelled as "gender neutral".

In my experience so far, I believe that the majority of "activism" that I am countering in the school comes from a (misplaced) centring of kindness and support, particularly for LGB people. I fully expect to bump in to nefarious actors at some point, particularly in my conversations beyond the school, but the "slow and steady" approach of balancing beliefs is working on a practical level. It is also helpful that awareness of both the conflict of interest with LGB and the instances of autogynophilia is gaining momentum in the public discourse. I haven't mentioned AGP at all during my conversations with the school, as it hasn't been necessary to do so and unfortunately I still think it would come across as "conspiracy theory" if I did.

I fully accept that I have been fortunate to find people with whom I could open up a dialogue, starting initially with my daughter and her EHCP at the centre. It could easily have gone very differently right from the start if I had not been so fortunate.

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334bu · 20/06/2024 12:42

Well done.

HandShoe · 20/06/2024 12:48

A great update, thanks

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/06/2024 16:08

What a good update. It sounds as if the push from you (and maybe other parents) plus Cass and and the updates to KCSIE has put them on a journey back to reality and prioritising children rather than lobby group demands.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/06/2024 16:26

Well done, what an achievement.

JudasButler1 · 20/06/2024 20:33

This is a really useful thread, thank you

JuneFTW · 20/06/2024 22:42

Thank you for posting this, very helpful for my own conversations on this with school. Well done and thank you to everyone doing this or considering it!

BonfireLady · 21/06/2024 10:49

I'm really glad it's useful.

And thank you for the comments from PPs above.

To pick up on Mrs O's point: yes, being able to have these conversations is a combination of acquiring usable information (MN has been invaluable for this) and the actions of others to make it easier to speak about it all.

I made a decision early on to only use "official" information when talking to the school. In the early days, this meant that I was limited to the Interim Cass Report - which is very similar to the final report - and the figures from the Tavistock clinic on the number of referrals (plus a paper written by two Tavistock clinicians which estimated the percentage of autistic children who had been referred was 48%) but now the amount of usable material has grown considerably.
As the conversation opened up, I was gradually able to bring in information from "lobby groups" such as SSA, Sex Matters and Transgender Trend cautiously but I was very conscious that doing so meant that I was effectively "lobbying" from a political standpoint. It's a fine line between lobbying with opinion and passing on factual information. It's especially difficult to remain objective when I'm so angry about what's happening to vulnerable children and so scared about what it means for my own daughter. If my daughter had been further down the rabbit-hole of gender identity belief when I started the conversation, and I didn't have other actions outside school (e.g. my conversations with CAMHS) I'm not sure I could have been so objective in my approach. I've also found it intensely frustrating sending things off in to the ether and not knowing what was happening e.g. I gave my RHSE materials feedback months ago (possibly even a year ago) and finally had the feedback on what had been changed this week. It's been a balancing act of chasing and waiting on each of the issues and prioritising the conversations around specific issues when it was most likely to be beneficial e.g. I gave a nudge on the RHSE materials when the latest draft guidance came out. Schools are in such a difficult position, particularly around managing different viewpoints within their legal obligations, but hopefully many will be sensing the direction of travel and appreciating why gender identity belief is so dangerous for vulnerable children.

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BonfireLady · 21/06/2024 11:53

Adding another reflection, inspired by another thread:

A key turning point for my conversation was the statement in the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance in the definition of "gender identity" (my bold):

Gender identity: is a contested belief. It is a sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male, female or another category such as non-binary. This may or may not be the same as their biological sex. Many people do not consider that they or others have a gender identity at all.

This was a game changer in the conversation with the school. I think most of the people that I'm talking to either do believe that everyone has a gender identity or think that it's probably true.

I call it "gender identity belief" in my conversations with the school. This is good enough because schools need to think carefully about their existing statutory obligations around beliefs that some people hold. I don't need to challenge the belief.

I'm hoping that we will get to a position of mutual recognition that "genderism" doesn't belong in schools because gender identity belief is not innocuous once you dig below the Be Kind layer at the surface. It leaps to extreme "genderist" thinking very quickly. However, I'm realistic that this mutual position will take time, as the public learns more about the harms associated with it all. The nuances of the difference between holding the general belief (analogy = being a Christian), forcing it as a truth (analogy = the Spanish Inquisition) and the harms that can come from its enforcement (analogy = the Waco tragedy which was rooted in a fear of the apocalypse) are almost impossible to see unless you're fully immersed in the discussions. Thankfully the Cass Report has made some of the harms much easier to see. This and the impact of vulnerable children being pulled in to the belief are my focus.

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ScrollingLeaves · 21/06/2024 12:24

BonfireLady · 21/06/2024 11:53

Adding another reflection, inspired by another thread:

A key turning point for my conversation was the statement in the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance in the definition of "gender identity" (my bold):

Gender identity: is a contested belief. It is a sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male, female or another category such as non-binary. This may or may not be the same as their biological sex. Many people do not consider that they or others have a gender identity at all.

This was a game changer in the conversation with the school. I think most of the people that I'm talking to either do believe that everyone has a gender identity or think that it's probably true.

I call it "gender identity belief" in my conversations with the school. This is good enough because schools need to think carefully about their existing statutory obligations around beliefs that some people hold. I don't need to challenge the belief.

I'm hoping that we will get to a position of mutual recognition that "genderism" doesn't belong in schools because gender identity belief is not innocuous once you dig below the Be Kind layer at the surface. It leaps to extreme "genderist" thinking very quickly. However, I'm realistic that this mutual position will take time, as the public learns more about the harms associated with it all. The nuances of the difference between holding the general belief (analogy = being a Christian), forcing it as a truth (analogy = the Spanish Inquisition) and the harms that can come from its enforcement (analogy = the Waco tragedy which was rooted in a fear of the apocalypse) are almost impossible to see unless you're fully immersed in the discussions. Thankfully the Cass Report has made some of the harms much easier to see. This and the impact of vulnerable children being pulled in to the belief are my focus.

Edited

@BonfireLady have you seen the thread with lawyer Denis Kavanagh’s response to Labour?

It is brilliantly written, very calm, respectful and measured. And focussed as it is primarily on the harms of transgender policies on homosexual boys/men in particular ( but many points apply generally of course) it could really make your colleagues aware that saying ‘no’ to this wave of transgender pressure is ‘not’ “Section 28” or the equivalent of homophobia all over again.

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