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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"How inclusive language can help to reduce birth trauma"

32 replies

CrossPurposes · 23/05/2024 22:45

https://theconversation.com/how-inclusive-language-can-help-to-reduce-birth-trauma-226197

Anyone convinced by the arguments made here?

Ironically, it was linked to underneath an article talking about the shift in usage of words that had once had a particular meaning:

https://theconversation.com/woke-and-gaslight-dont-mean-what-you-think-they-do-heres-why-thats-a-problem-230488

How inclusive language can help to reduce birth trauma

28% of trans and non-binary people felt they were not treated with dignity and respect during labour – but coverage of the UK birth trauma report has largely ignored LGBTQ+ families

https://theconversation.com/how-inclusive-language-can-help-to-reduce-birth-trauma-226197

OP posts:
nauticant · 24/05/2024 11:10

I have little doubt that a pregnant woman would feel much more comfortable challenging well-meaning clumsy speech than challenging politicised speech being used about her and around her to control her thinking.

TicklishLemur · 24/05/2024 19:33

I detest the violently misogynistic and degrading terminology such as calling us baby carriers or referring to our front holes. I am also disgusted by the move to erase women and girls from information about female conditions. Finally I agree with others here who have pointed out how insulting it is to use birth trauma as an excuse to push for a movement that undermines and disrespects women.

However, one of the suggestions I think make sense - providing literature that is specific to trans-identified or detrans women where there is a need. It’s not a matter of agreeing on an ideological basis, but I don’t want anyone to be left without vital health care knowledge. Although the article constantly bangs on about inclusive language (which I can also assume means the erasure and degradation of women) it is far more important that they are accurately and clearly informed about their healthcare needs.

For example, in a lot of women testosterone use causes vaginal atrophy which can make cervical screening painful. If they and their health care providers are aware of this issue then there are things that can be done to make screening more comfortable.

I suffer from the same condition, but being post-menopausal it was something the nurse was already thinking about and so after examining me she prescribed an oestrogen pessary and rearranged to a later date when it had taken effect. I don’t imagine that would be at the front of your mind when caring for a young woman. It important that both she and her nurse are aware, because a painful and unpleasant experience could decrease future uptake rates.

I mentioned cervical screening because that is an issue that affects a lot more trans-identifying women than pregnancy, but the same is true in relation to pregnancy and contraception. A lot of trans-identified women falsely believe that testosterone use protects them from pregnancy when it does not. They also need to be informed that using testosterone whilst pregnant can cause birth defects in the developing foetus.

None of this is about accepting or supporting the use of drugs or surgery in trans-identified people, but on a practical level people do these things whether we think it is the correct way to manage their psychological issue or not. They and their doctor need to have an awareness of the medical consequences, and guidance specifically designed for these groups can provide that without degrading and erasing women and girls. Nor does that literature itself have to use misogynistic language; in fact I have seen several trans-identified women who are uncomfortable with this language too.

I can’t agree with those suggesting that the NHS shouldn’t spend the money, which frankly wouldn’t be very much, on producing this kind of guidance or suggesting it is wasteful. We all deserve health care that considers the individual needs and risk factors we have, and I can’t support the notion that any group is less entitled to this. Whether I agree with someone’s choices or beliefs has no impact on that.

Sorry if I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent. I know the true issue most of us have is with the degrading language and treatment of women and girls, and I expect everyone here agrees about the need for complete transparency regarding the consequences of experimental hormonal and surgical interventions.

However, I wanted to raise the examples because I think the difference between these two approaches is sometimes overlooked, and I do believe that there are ways we can protect the health of trans-identifying people without promoting harmful and dangerous ideology.

RedToothBrush · 25/05/2024 00:34

If you are pregnant and upset to the point of trauma by the wrong pronouns, I would suggest that social services and the mental health team would be a good bet due to the relationship between women and girls who identify as trans a history of trauma / sexual abuse in the past.

Maybe address this appropriately rather than being ridiculous and blame staff for using the correct pronouns for you.

Male people don't get pregnant. Only women.

If you are in this level of denial then there should be a whole bunch of concerns about your new child.

dunBle · 25/05/2024 01:00

@TicklishLemur I absolutely agree with you on specialist health messaging for transpeople. As you say, those who've taken hormonal or surgical steps to transition may have different needs to others of their sex, and it means that plain english can be used for the clearest messaging for the general population.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 25/05/2024 01:08

When I'm giving birth I want to be referred to as 'a pregnant woman, the Mother'. I don't want my most female of experiences in life fucked up by stupid diversity ticking. No thank you. If John in the suite next door is also having a vagina birth but wants to use opposite sex language about themselves so be it. Doesn't need to affect my experience.

Catsmere · 25/05/2024 02:28

Why does "inclusive" invariably seem to end up meaning "pandering to the delusional and the fetishists, preferably while reinforcing systemic misogyny"?

TicklishLemur · 25/05/2024 13:39

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 24/05/2024 10:54

As I said on another thread, I'd love to know what percentage of women (not LGBTQ+etc women but all those of the female sex however they identify):

Identify as a man
AND get pregnant
AND mind being referred to as a woman themselves
AND think this should trump all other women's rights and that all references to women, mother etc should be removed from medical and health literature.

It will be down in the tiny fractions of a percent, given that less than 1% of women identify as trans anyway.

I really object to the statistical
weaselling in that article, trying to imply that 28% (ooh, big number) of LGBTQ etc women are having traumatic births because of.... misgendering?

It makes it sound at a glance like 28% of women. This is why we need to know exactly who we are taking about, and the numbers not just percentages involved.

And using 'LGBTQ+' in this context is useless - no one giving birth is 'G'. Most of the 'L' probably want to be called women because that's what they are. Its ridiculous forced teaming to prioritise the T+ over everyone else.

Edit for typo

Edited

I found this thread very interesting. It is a young trans-identified female who takes testosterone, has had a mastectomy and intends to get genital surgery. So hardly someone that TRAs could claim is bigoted and hateful to trans-identified people. Whilst I have many concerns about some of the poster’s experiences and views, she makes her feelings on this matter completely clear.

She made a few posts laying out how uncomfortable she is with inclusive language but this comment is particularly telling:
I hate terms like 'front hole', or the even worse 'bonus hole', to my core. I think they are utterly degrading. A vagina is not just a 'hole', any more than an anus or the oral cavity is. They are complex organs with a variety of functions. I don't like the fact that I have a vagina, but when needing to have health care discussions I would much rather it be called the correct term, than one that treats it as if it exists purely for the purpose of PIV intercourse.

She is exclusively attracted to women, has no desire to have receptive vaginal sex, and is a victim of rape. In light of all that, TRAs referring to her vagina as a bonus hole is particularly abusive, cruel and degrading in my opinion. This disgusting sexualised language is an attack on all women. Sadly, some trans-identifying women have been sufficiently gaslit to accept it, but her example highlights the clear universal truth of that fact.

I really don’t think that the constant demands to use this language is being done for the benefit of people like her. It is all about erasing the female sex to support the demands of men who want access to out private spaces. I believe that is why we don’t see men referred to as penis-havers, impregnators, or their penises called bonus dildos. Because trans-identified men would be very unhappy being referred to like that and it would undermine their efforts to invade our space. Clearly they don’t care one iota about how their advocacy harms women, trans-identified or not. Their priority is always for the feelings of men.

You also noted how the statistic about LGBTQ women is being abused to imply that trans-identification is the main issue faced by this group. Of course, the vast majority of those women are not trans-identified. My wife and I had our children before same sex parenting was fully understood or accepted. We definitely faced some prejudice and when I went into labour with our first child they tried to prevent her from staying with me.

We successfully challenged that but it was hurtful and distressing without a doubt. But that doesn’t compare to my previous experience of going through a fraught and prolonged labour without adequate pain relief and suffering a fourth degree tear as a child victim of sexual abuse. That was completely avoidable, should have been at the forefront of their mind in an underdeveloped 12 year old, and left me with long term pain.

Birth trauma is the physical and psychological trauma inflicted on women during labour - whether through unnecessary interventions like routine episiotomies or failure to notice or care when women are at high risk of an adverse outcome like I was. Hurt feelings and offence are not birth trauma.

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